Why can't Israel leave Gaza alone??????

Surely as former Victims(now playing the role of aggressor AND victim) should know better

send the Isrealis into the desert where they belong:)

Sorry, I've been busy moving back to Montreal. I'll come back and debate more, but I'll be sleeping soon. I'll take the time to address one point since it seem that obiwan has decided he can sympathize if this point is addressed and sympathy is certainly conducive to peace.

"But what about Palestinians? Are Palestinians Palestinans WITHOUT Palestine/Gaza/The West Bank? Are they SIGNIFICANTLY AND RECOGNIZABLY different from the other Arabic-Persian Muslims in the region? Or, are they, without their land, really in essence the same in most ways as Iranians, Saudis, Iraqis, Lebanese, etc."

Absolutely they are significantly recognizable. Enough that they have they would have their own state rather than blur borders with the surrounding Arab countries. I think you should the travel the area (try not to bring up your Zionist beliefs), because I think you have the impression that the Arab peoples are more or less homogenous. They are no more homogenous than are the Western nations... especially the English speaking Western nations. It's more like driving you out of your home and saying that you are culturally similar enough to go live in Canada, Australia, or the UK and you should be fine with that. I'm not saying you couldn't bear to live there... I'm saying you would most definitely protest such an action and fight for your right to live in what you consider to be your home, and what has been your home.

@Invictus
1) Hawaii is an american occupied territory, not a state.
2) i chose Hawaii because its the best example that i could think of that americans could sympathise with. i couldn't exactly say "imagine the entire american continent has been blockaded". I was merely speculating what americans would think if they were in the situation the Gazans are in.

Hawaii is a state... Maybe you are thinking of Puerto Rico?

its a territory which became a state after everyone seemingly forgot about how it came into american hands.

Puerto Rico as a commanwealth has had several chances to vote for statehood or independance. All people in Puerto Rico are US citizens.

Benjamin, last I checked Hawaii voted for statehood and it was signed by Truman I believe.

Benjamin, are you seriously trying to say Hawaii isn't a state?
It was in fact, the 50th state admitted in 1959, three short years before Obama was born there (If they could have just waited til '63 to join ... damn!).

As far as the comment about it being a territory first and people forgetting where it came from. This doesn't distinguish it in any way from the vast majority of the US, including Alaska, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Minnesota, and about 30 others.

yeah i guess it is the same as the rest of the usa, except it was annexed by the usa in 1900.
the other states were all conquored from their natives about 300 years earlier.
all i'm saying is that hawaii is a relatively new aqasition the the USA, a country which supposedly believes in freedom.

@ Draugnar
the people who voted for Hawaii to become a state were the americans who had moved there after the USA annaxed it and overthrown the previous government.

Ben most of the US was not "conquered" till the 1800's. Making it less than 200 years.

Actually much of the middle of the country was purchased.

Benjamin, I don't know where you're from, so I'll give you a pass on the history lesson specifics. I can't let you get by on the lunacy of your argument.

I don't even know where to start on where you're wrong. America gained control of Hawaii in a less than honorable way to be sure, but it was nothing compared to the naked imperialism of the European powers in Africa and Asia. Also, it's completely inappropriate to call Hawaii an occupied territory when the population voted for statehood and has full representation in all levels of government.

You're clutching at straws to support your boneheaded blanket condemnation of Israel and a blind hatred of the United States that ignores incontrovertible facts. It's more pathetic than anything.

Funny...here we have a population voting for statehood as an example of legitimacy of statehood...yet the same legitimacy is not granted to a population that votes for Hamas.

Make sense much?

Is anyone else completely and thoroughly disgusted at recent Israeli actions? Bombing a school! Using White Phosphoruos! Cluster bombs!

WAR CRIMES!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4123767/Israeli-forces-kill-five-Palestinian-children-in-Gaza.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=An.KQ3A4x7PqSpavqJLbi.ZvaA8F

WARNING! Graphic pics in this next link:
http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=50434&s2=06

I have a two year old and those pictures are devastating. If that were my child...let's just say my hatred for those responsible would know no bounds.

Bottom line, the more Israel does things like this, the more they will be hated.

The population voted in a government who declared they would fight Israel, that they would launch rockets into civilian area of Israel, and presumably the population knows that they would launch these rockets from civilian areas.

While the loss of civilian life is a tragedy, voting for a government you know would war with your neighbors makes you somewhat complicit in what happens when that government does what it said it would do.

Hawaii voting to become a state is completely different from Hamas being voted into power. Apples and cougars, apples and cougars.

Indeed. No-one, not even Israel says that the Palestinians of Gaza shouldn't have had the right to elect Hamas.

The German people too, they had the right to elect Hitler.

But they should be willing then (if they are free and rational actors) to accept the consequences of the actions perpetrated by the group they gave legitimacy through by electing them.


Sure, there are some mitigating circumstances; poor economic opportunities, partial blockade and low availability of luxury goods; historic injustices...

But being upset about injustice does not condone violence and shouldn't make you immune to the violent response to your violence (or support of it)

I can provide links of photos too. The 'War Crimes' don't happen in a vaccuum.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Palestinian%20Terrorism-%20Photos%20-%20Suicide%20bombing%20at

http://www.take-a-pen.org/english/Articles/Art04102003.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html

Oh, and to Dingleberry's comment;

"Actually much of the middle of the country was purchased."

While the American Government did technically purchase the right to much of Middle America's land from the French Government, most of these areas were French in name only.

I would describe the subsequent movement of Americans and displacement/elimination of Native Peoples very much as naked Imperialism and occupation; without direct servitude of the conquered peoples of course.

Now, Canada did the same thing, and essentially every country in existence today has in some way been an imperial power (or has been created out of the remnants of an empire).

I'm just trying to be fair here :P

Agreed Friendly Sword, it was more a response to Denzel's "Manhattan was paid for, when Dutch took it from the natives."

Anyone who really believes that the Indians were 'selling' Manhattan doesn't really understand what took place.

"The population voted in a government who declared they would fight Israel"

Firstly...so Hamas is legitimate then, right?

Secondly, the current IDF offensive was in response to slingshot, er...rocket attacks that were themselves in response to the Israeli blockade of food and medicine on Nov 4th AND the killing of six Hamas officials on Nov 5th.

Prior to that, there was a cease-fire. Israel broke that cease-fire knowingly. I can find countless other instances in which Israel has broken the ceasefire with incursions and violating airspace...only to point out the flimsy and mostly impotent rocket attack retaliation as justification for slaughter.

Dingleberry...I would urge you to keep track of both sides of the news. Seems you aren't giving fair and balanced it's due diligence.

Besides, what do you have to say about Israel using banned weapons on the most densely populated area on earth?

Let me guess...it's okay, right?

I'm actually quite appalled that you can call it such a tragedy in the same breath that you imply that they deserve it. Not so much of a tragedy if you feel they deserve it, is it?

"Hawaii voting to become a state is completely different from Hamas being voted into power."

Oh please tell me the difference! Cuz the point is democracy. Is democracy and the giving power to the people through voting subject to your own prejudices?...your own discretion?

Why is the voice of the Palestinian people not legitimate?

There were 215 rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel DURING THE TRUCE.

Yeah, it would be like the following:

You live on an island, and hunt, fish, do all sorts of things on it. A couple people you're related to also live on the island. Occassionally you fight, but its not really about land, which no-one owns.

Then some scraggly, small, desperate looking men wash up on shore. They ask if they can stay on your island.

There are only five of them, so you and your co-islanders say sure, and offer to help them set up shelter. In exchange for your genorsity, the men offer you some really cool metal implements that you've never seen before and cannot make your self.

Then, the men invite some other men over and they build a whole bunch of really permanent looking shelters. You're slightly uneasy, but the men keep trading with you so you don't mind too much.

Then, some other scraggly men take over the settlement from the men who were there before, they invites hundreds of people over and suddenly theres no room for you to live, much less hunt.

You confront the men, but they shoo you away, saying they 'own the rights to the land. A couple of your co-islanders continue to try to live on the island and hunt, but the newcomings shoot them.

Apparently the game 'belongs to them'.

Darwyn, wtf!?!?

If you made a truce with someone, and they fired 215 ROCKETS at you, said they wanted you and everyone like you dead or gone, and succeeded in killing some of your civilians...

You wouldn't consider that breaking a truce?

"The 'War Crimes' don't happen in a vaccuum."

True. But I don't think you are quite grasping this.

Why are Palestinians suicide bombing Israeli's? Seriously ponder that for a while.

Hawaii became a state of the Union with full representation. It voted to NEVER become independent. Hamas was voted in as a government to continue the process of creating a Palestinian state. Big difference there.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. The war wasn't started because Hamas was in power necessarily, but because Hamas continued its attacks on Israel. Do you honestly expect Israel to let a committed terrorist state form on its borders that is actively attacking it?

Friendly Sword,

You didn't read what I wrote. Israel broke the cease-fire on Nov 4th with a blockade (act of war) of food and medicine. ANd then again on Nov 5th when Israel killed six Hamas officials.

AGAIN, prior to that, there had been a cease fire.

Invictus,

I'm still not clear as to why you think Palestinian voices are not legitimate?