Capitalism has created great wealth, and delivered many benefits, but to think it is without fault is, frankly, stupid. However the iniquities of capitalism are a reflection of the vices of men and women. Greed is not always good. Avarice, envy, gluttony..and gluttony can be more than just the over consumption of food.. Look at some of the excesses of consumerism.

ND strikes me as being like one of those adoring, sycophantic acolytes of Ms. Ayn Rand. The trouble that woman's deceptively seductive ideology has caused is a plague on humanity.

Ayn Rand is awful.

@Bo

you DID make that claim. i have it right here

"Some of them are predicated on the idea that you work for the community and the community works for you, which in turn means that your increased productivity means increased productivity from your friends and neighbors, and thus you all receive better returns.""

i'm simply saying that it would not increase productivity by an objective standard. maybe everyone relative to one another would be more equally productive, but not as productive as the overall population of a competitive society.

once again, do as you please. i'm fine if you live on some commune and live within that group of people only. i'm more libertarian on these things, i have no problem with that.

Oh, no one dies due to capitalism? Try 5.5 million from pollution every year. Capitalism invariably pushes costs onto others. That is an inevitable outcome. Similarly there are the millions killed and maimed from defective products pushed out by businesses cutting corners for a buck. These guys have no problem killing random people for money. Shall we then talk about colonialism, and all the wars fought to protect corporations. A million died in the effort to transfer state oil contracts to American companies in Iraq. Don't forget, slavery was also a capitalist enterprise. That's 60 million right there (estimators go up to 150 million)

Oh, yeah capitalism killed barely anyone. This guy sounds like a soviet propaganda writer

The tobacco industry...

Maybe ND was just trolling. His claim was so obviously untruthful.

I personally love Ayn Rand. I have almost all of her books in my collection.

Capitalism is totally different from Communism. Communism is a system of government (political, economic, social, cultural, whatever). In this system, state power leads to the deaths of millions of people. Look at any communist country (NK, Cuba, Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, etc). It's a sicko system.

Capitalism is an economic model designed around free markets and trading. Capitalism is NOT a government. It's an economic model. Individuals governments may use capitalism as an economic model, but it's the government themselves (usually a form of constitutional monarchy, monarchy, or constitutional/parliamentary democracy/Republic) that make decisions that lead to human suffering and death. Not capitalism.

@JY re: increased productivity.

I think you and Bo are misunderstanding each other. Bo is claiming that in this hypothetical commune, your productivity adds to the communities well-being, and the community's productivity adds to your well-being, so there is an incentive to co-operate, rsther than competing.

Not comparing the total productivity and saying it increases global levels in therms of efficiency, which is what i think you took from it.

Now there may be an arguement for unmeasurable community well-being which can only be earned by living and working with a group of people, the kinds of strong and trusting bonds you build may have some value - think of the band of brothers type mentality that the military tries to build between small groups, and how former service personnel tend to say they miss it (also ex-right wing extremists, according to a documentary i just watched).

What that value is itself worth. And how those communes could also interact with the outside world (providing services and purchasing things which they can't efficiently provide for themseves) makes for an interesting proposal. But i don't know how to form such a community/cult.

Actually, there are a lot of ways in which a socially responsible approach leaves everyone more productive. For example, in health care, systems run but the community deliver better health outcomes for vastly less money. Better health equals better productivity. Capitalist/individualist societies refuse to cooperate and leave the system to a patchwork of private actors all of whom are aiming to milk as much cash for themselves while stuffing their customers. If the Us health care system were as unregulated as some would like, it'd rough stop acting like a health care system at all with attendant productivity losses

Education has a similar multiplier effect. For the most part, mutual support in societies is a very effective approach. This is why ants and humans dominate the earth and lizards don't.

Well being isn't typically something capitalists understand it know how to recognize. It is all about bank accounts. Good luck making that pitch. It's like trying to convince blind people that one color of clothing is less garish than another.

James, do you have a reading deficiency or a vision problem? There is no comparison within that statement. You're creating ghosts.

This is the guy who thinks that neonazis murdering people is exactly the same as camping in a park. I wouldn't expect much from him Bo

All the conservatives on this forum have poor reading comprehension and bad faith.

Seriouy guys, drop the attacks on the person, you make you argument look bad. Take on the argument if you want to add to the discussion.

Why would I want to add to the discussion? Everything there is to be said has been said, they're just not willing to argue in good faith.

Look, this isn't about the person it is about the tactics. Pushing false equivalence es, pushing Gish Gallops of toomuch bullshit to refute to bury opponents in nonsense, spewing points not based in reality, consistent denial of facts.

This is all intentional

Reading this thread is a bit of a head trip. Do communist factories not produce any pollution? Are there no injuries in communist work camps?

Yeah, Ogion, he clearly doesn't think that.

I officially declare that bo is certainly not the worst.

I've been taking that one for the team for like five years. It's okay, Prado.

For a few years longer than it's been funny, too.

Communist factories do not produce Ferraris, nor are the workers in communist factories subjected to that labor by virtue of their birth.

I was under the impression that communist workers were subjected to labour by virtue of their birth, contrary to a capitalist system where they can choose to do anything or nothing.

Yeah, a girl born in the slums of Calcutta has an equal change of being a wall street exec as I do!

Congratulations of being facetious. You both have a near-zero chance. But good luck being a wall street exec in a communist system.

It's impossible to engage with people like Condescension @CroakandDagger. Don't even waste your time.

If you can out-Communist him as a means of arguing in favor of capitalism, it can be done.

All of the positive aspects of neo-colonialism only exist on this side of the Ocean. All the arguments in favor of capitalism ignore the places where all your cool shit is being made.