Are we still arguing this? You all are like a bunch of fucking bulldogs after their balls have been cut off.

Could you tell us what that is like? From experience of course? :-P

As the owner of the aforementioned bulldogs, they still act tough but walk like little pussies with those collar rings and the tenderness of their crotches.

Bart: How can you assume Carthage would advance if any advancement by Carthage risks losing the seventeenth and eighteenth centers? And in your rebuttal you admitted there was room for Egypt to advance, contingent on how Carthage acted; you assume that if Carthage moves on Egypt as Egypt starts rotating fleets that Egypt will be stalled, which subsequently means that if Carthage doesn't move on Egypt that Egypt advances.

Fact is, was not a stalemate. There was still a chance Egypt could win irrespective of Greece CDing. And as long as it's possible for Egypt to win there is no reason why Egypt should draw.

I can't speak to the whole replacement/pause thing because no one can see votes from past turns and neither side is going to admit the other was right in this instance (Babak won't say that he ignored a pause request even if it's true, y'all won't say you didn't ask for a pause/replacement even if it's true), so there's no way for me to determine.

@Eden

Speculate all you want. Give me the specific scenario. Map it out.

People will have differing opinions on any given subject, and this is not going to be the exception - so if a few or even if a handful of players out of the 3000 on this site don't want to play with me because of perceived 'poor sportsmanship' then I guess I'm just SOL. I'll live.

There are competing philosophies about this game on this site... some folks think someone has 'earned' a draw if they played well and put up a good fight... good for you - then draw. others like me think that the point of this game, and the enjoyment derived from it, is to play to the complete and utter bitter end... (if you have the upper hand) and try to force someone who has the upper hand to let you in the draw if you are the weaker party... so I dont begrudge those that try in-game to convince the bigger power to concede a draw (MM does this masterfully)... but I personally think that it is the DUTY of every player to try as hard as hell to get the win.

in this game, there WAS NO STALEMATE!!!! even a 1% shot at taking the win is a 1% shot worth taking. and BECAUSE it's a gunboat, I can be reasonably sure that someone would F*** up.... i can indeed count on that ... its a gunboat game!!!!!!

after abge and bart basically told us who they were, it was no longer gunboat, and they could have colluded outside-of-game to stop the "doushebag"/"dirtball"/"jerk" Egypt player they obviously felt justified in stopping. (and yes, douchebag was the most insulting - and no bart, in real life, I thankfully have wonderful relationships with almost everyone I've ever encountered... I guess I let Mr. Hyde come out online instead as you will see below ;)

if no thread was created, and if greece had not CD'd, I would have kept this game going for another 5, 7, or 10 years if needed... I would have tried EVERYTHING (as I said except cheating ie. meta/multi as I said before).

this game was not over.

granted, my shot of a solo was still less than even 25%... some might say less... but it was above 0%.

as for taking advantage of a CD - the damage was done. the guy NMR'd ... hell, like I said, I NMR'd too and GREECE took advantage... shit happens in the game, and in a gunboat game, this happens often... so deal with it.

as for my comment during the thread - I took great pains to APPEAR as if I was not even IN the game. and my comment was as 'objective' as it could possibly be ... it was a few short lines and not pages upon pages of insult on top of innuendo on top of threats on top of complete and utter poor character.

bart, I appreciate you apologizing for creating this thread. I appreciate you acknowledging that calling Egypt a jerkface was not appropriate, and I appreciate you acknowledging that people have different philosophies on the game. I can completely understand your desire not to play with someone whose philosophy you dont like... so, fine with me. dont join any games I create. but a word to the wise, I rarely create games, and I usually join anon/wta games without announcing I'm in them.


as for the special case of our very special needs friend Ivo...

do you feel relevant again? that must be so nice huh? oh poor baby was feeling all left alone and not being talked about! well I'm glad you've found a little scab you can pick at, and just like little carrion animals you think you've found a dead animal to come pick at....

except I'm no dead carcass kid!

And I still think you are one of the most insulting, aggressive, and rude sore losers I've ever come across in any game of Diplomacy. You can call me whatever names you like that make you feel superior buddy, but keep in mind that your attitude and your lack of civility shine through in every anonymous game you play... you seem like one of those bitter old men who never accomplished their wish list in life and now feel enmity towards reality and existence itself... I feel truly sad for you.


except for Ivo, I do appreciate this wonderful and healthy discussion. I don't mind the critiques, and people will continue to disagree whether someone in Egypt's position should or should not have continued to play to get the solo... and I still don't think there is a 'standard practice' in this situation...

but I have learned a few things I will take with me going forward:

1) mods WILL unpause a game eventually, even in an anon/gunboat game if the other players turn out to be asses and not unpause. I did not know this and did not expect it.

2) we have all learned once more NOT to post about an on-going game, and specially not a gunboat game.

3) that no matter what, when you win, other people lose... and often they have to blame other things than themselves for their loss... I've learned to deal with that.

I insult you because that's the only thing that gets through and the only thing you deserve. You're a lying manipulative ass - which works in this game - so it is you who thinks that you'll always get away with it:

1. It is obviously not only me. Is everyone else also a bad loser? Is everyone one else singling you out because they are scared of how good you are? How dilusional are you?
2. The previous game you claimed you'll wait four or six turns after a stalemate has been reached. Now you claim different - it was a gunboat and the forum post was the problem - you have another excuse, well done. Do you plan this for every game? When are you going to stop blaming others for your own decisions?
3. The previous game you claimed it was a "textbook example" how to win. Really? Which textbook is this? I've never seen anywhere someone state that the right way to soli is to get to 17 centers and hold until someone gives you the game...
4. You constantly refer to your long experience, FTF days and so on. Please, can you tell me, how does thus work FTF - you get to 17 centers and the others are happy to continue playing and negotiating with you for as long ad you see fit? The way I know it - when someone gets this close to winning all negotiations stop, people don't even leave the table, just submit the same sheet of paper with the phase date changed. What's your approach there - wait for someone to go pee?
4. I don't have a problem with people thinking I'm being an ass towards you. It's a worthy investment, someone has to do it.
5. Stop thinking it's some form of conspiracy... when are you going to win a game without all others concluding you're an ass? Any chance you might be doing it wrong? But you don't care, do you - you're used to doing whatever you want and then bulshitting your way out... not anymore.

@Babak: you said,

"There are competing philosophies about this game on this site... some folks think someone has 'earned' a draw if they played well and put up a good fight... good for you - then draw. others like me think that the point of this game, and the enjoyment derived from it, is to play to the complete and utter bitter end... (if you have the upper hand) and try to force someone who has the upper hand to let you in the draw if you are the weaker party... so I dont begrudge those that try in-game to convince the bigger power to concede a draw (MM does this masterfully)... but I personally think that it is the DUTY of every player to try as hard as hell to get the win."

I have no competing philosophy there. I agree with that. It's the way you went/go about the win that is underhanded.

Could someone from your camp please map out how a gain was possible for Egypt? Babak, it is seriously ok for you to say that you just didn't see it. That would sit much better with me.

And you can't just say your comment in the thread was totally objective and that make it ok. If abgdemacht and me broke rules by commenting on a gunboat we are in then so did you. The question you asked was obviously a leading one. You're guilty of the same thing we are.

ivo you really do seem like a bitter old man.

and your diatribe above is so full of factual holes that I'm surprised you are not ashamed of posting it... but I guess we all have our own standards huh? you are perfectly comfortable putting words into my mouth, stating your opinion as fact, and using personal insults to get a rise out of someone... and that's just outside the game... inside games, you are an even worst animal.

you are unique on this site my friend and currently hold the gold standard when it comes to misrepresentations and bitterness... I'm sure you'll have a nice pack of sycophantic followers, so at least you'll have that to support your deluded perceptions. have fun with it and hopefully you'll feel better about yourself at least.

here are some direct responses:

1) "everyone" else? either your math is horrible or you have selective reading skills. the word delusional comes to mind.

2) "six" seasons? like I said you enjoy making up statements from me? I have said 4 seasons of stalemate positions which from my understanding is the standard the mods use here. Same standard in our game as in this game. however, I also said that gunboats are notoriously harder to keep such a thing going.

3) "hold"ing all my units? another poor attempt at a lie. go show me where I held in either game! do you have no shame in your blatant lies and absurd attempts at misrepresenting facts? Its not even a good lie.... at least come up with something useful man!! have some pride in your linguistic arts!

4) I 'constantly' refer to FTF? once more, you give 'exaggeration' a bad name! what does FTF have to do with this and when was the last time I even brought that up? like 2 years ago??? maybe this is just your own inferiority complex talking since you have not played FTF, I don't know... I don't have the time to psycho-analyze you man, get a shrink for that. But this has nothing to do with FTF... most FTF games end with the players voting for a draw that includes LESS than all those remaining alive.

4. (the second 4) good to know you don't mind others realizing you are indeed an 'ass'... I'm glad you have left no room for error on the part of others. you are truly a first-rate ass - so be proud that you excel at something.

5) "conspiracy"? maybe you're not quite clear on the meaning of the term. so go look it up. as for winning a game go look at our ratios... I have 22 wins to 48 draws out of 105 games. so obviously outside of these two games I know how to win, and I also draw quite a bit... you on the other hand have 119 wins and 93 draws out of 360 games. your ratio clearly shows your game-value system when it comes to draws. I'm very curious to see how you can explain your very weird track record? maybe you were a fan of PPSC games at some point in the past... or perhaps you enjoy taking on a bunch of newbs and beating them... but my guess is a good percentage of those 119 solos had a lot to do with players NMRing and going CD... I'd love to see how many of YOUR solo's were based on the exceptional play you claim should be the gold standard... not to mention... 360 games!?!?!?! good god man, do you not have a life?

Ivo, I used to truly respect you... and as I've said to you personally before - when I first joined this site, you were on the top of my list of players I held in high regard... it truly is a shame to have seen you fall from grace in this way... reduced to taunting another player with half-baked insults that barely even make logical sense... truly a shame...

oh well, like I've said before... I'll live ;)

bart - I seriously did not and still do not think that we had a stalemate line. I seriously did and still think, I had a shot at a solo WITH all the players playing to the end. I had no illusion it would be easy, and I fully accept that your NMR coupled with Greece's NMR ended up giving me a 100x easier path to the solo... that is obvious. I do not think that by taking advantage of those NMR's near the end of the game I did anything wrong. I do agree that the win is worth less, and oh well its not like I play for stats anyways... this is certainly not a game I would highlight as a good game or as a game I'm particularly proud of winning.... but I do not believe I did anything wrong in achieving this win.

How are you so sure that if I had moved my fleets, Carthage who had made the same support orders for so many seasons would not continue to do so and would actually try to counter my fleet movements? I'm not so convinced he would. Also - how are you so sure that Greece would make the right support orders the whole time?

one other thing, could have also tried to shift my fleets over to the north side of Turkey and Byz in order to attack Black Sea... that would have also given me another path to a solo... I had a lot of options for moving my fleets around. would have taken time, would have been tedious, and to have countered them, the 3 of you would have had to guess correctly when to counter me and when to support hold in case I actually attacked instead of tried to move fleets.


as for the comment on the thread - I accept and agree that I probably should not have posted even that short message. but after 3 pages of being called a "douchebag" and all manner of mean comments (and incorrect analysis), I felt the objective 'truth' that there was NO stalemate line should be stated. I don't think my short comment is compatible to the fact that the thread was created in the first place though...

Babak - stop constantly lying you asshole. These are copy-pasted statements from you. You most certainly give FTF as example and most certainly said "alloted 4 (or is it 6) seasons of non-movement off the defensive stalemate line.

Effectively, what you're saying is that it's ok to wait for someone to NMR as a strategy for a solo. That's not a difference of opinions...

"the idea that I should pass up the chance to solo, even at the bitter end simply because it might offend someone's conventions of decency is laughable... this game is all about getting the solo - and the rulebook CLEARLY states that everything is kosher... in FTF play, it is even ok to write and show one set of orders to an ally then submit another... or to eavesdrop on other players... everything except bringing out-of-game elements into the game is considered completely legit."

http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=684747&page-thread=6#threadPager

The point I'm making - which you REFUSE to understand... is that I was FULLY willing and expecting to draw 3way... but after the alloted 4 (or is it 6) seasons of non-movement off the defensive stalemate line. I even emailed the mods to that effect and can ask them to re-paste my email to them to prove I fully intended and expected a 3way draw.

http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=684747&page-thread=7#threadPager

Additionally, you keep trying to attack me on a personal level, instead of tackling the specific arguments. I understand that your only defense in this situation is to make the people accusing you look bad... it's not going to work... actually this is the reason you get this abuse.

Stop being an ass and maybe you won't have to explain yourself so much.

Finally - for the previous game - can you let me know what's your final position:
1. When MM said you deserve 0% credit for the win. You strongly disagreed.
2. When you were accused of unethical play you placed all the blame with FRA (and me) and strongly disagreed to the idea that your actions may have caused this mess.

Which one is it. You always seem to both imply ignorance/incompetence plus brag about how good you're playing and how professional your actions were.

I'm sorry, but you're really full of shit. It's pointless to try and explain. You just lie all the time (and I'm not talking in-game).

And one final comment, because you constantly imply that I'm somehow scared by how good you are and/or a bad loser:
1. From my quick check you've only won one game in which I also played - the one in questions. I've played a a lot of games and lost a lot. Why do you think you're the only one I've taken such a drastic approach to? Surely I would have have this problem with other people - who've won more against me?
2. I don't know how your deranged brain works - but most people actually like playing against tougher opposition. When you lose to someone you want to play them again, it's a challenge, you want to get even, get better, etc. But that's not the category you fall into. I don't want to neither lose nor win this way.
3. I play soccer a few times a week. Sometimes, someone will come equipped for the real thing - metal studs, knee and shin protection... the full body kevlar thing. They claim it's not against the rules....

The problem is, when someone like this hits you (or even just steps on you) it hurts like hell - and if it's a heavier tackle (e.g. sliding tackle) you risk serious injury.

You try talking to these people, explaining the the basic concept that if everyone did it we'll all be worse of... but they don't get it. Then an incident happens and someone gets hurt (or at least a heavy scare for a major injury) - but these morons keep insisting they are not part of the problem...

Well, if you're so stupid and socially inept - fuck off - I don't want to deal with you, I don't want you near me, I don't want you being an example for others.

I know you used to respect me a lot - so did I. Not anymore - you've fallen so much down that I really don't care about how it looks from outside, and if you think I care about your opinion...

Learn how cause and effect work. You're getting exactly the treatment you deserve.

-assume all other pieces hold stalemate position-

From A14's position:
F Alexandria -> Cyrene

S15:
A Sahara H/-> Cirta
A Phazania S A Numidia
F Cyrene -> Leptis
A Leptis -> Marmarica

A15:
F Cilician -> Egyptian -> Libyan -> blah blah, basically a fleet slide all the way down to Leptis while A Phazania S F Leptis -> Numidia.

Once he does all that he can force Gulf of Tacape and create a bunch of 50/50 scenarios around Carthage, try to push into Messenian/Aegean, etc.

Sure, you COULD have magically known to push the offensive right then, and it might even have been evident what he was trying to do. But the fact remains that it was not a perfect stalemate.

And why is the burden of proof on me? Why don't you and your camp demonstrate the so-called stalemate?

i am not in a camp, but one of the reasons i said i would join is because i think the stalemate was there. Because it would take two turns to take Gulf of Tacape and Messenian and in one turn, it would be possible to build a new fleet in Neapoli to create the true stalemate.

@ President Eden. You are saying, try to push into Messenian/Aegean etc, but the etc part is wrong, after those two area's, you would notice the stalemate.

@ At Babak, not to say you did i wrong, it is your own choice, but i have to say: The moderator rule of forcing a draw after 4 stalemated turns looks te me as acting in an extreme situation, not as setting a norm of the moment to accept a stalemate.

te = to

We'll the judges require 5 years IIRC without a change of SC so four turns (2 years) is actually not unreasonable at all.

Ivo, you're the one that's being an asshole here. I've been in more than one game with Babak. He's a ruthless player, certainly, and quick to take advantage of any error such as an NMR, but there's nothing wrong with that, in my view.

In the particular example of this gunboat, he was under no obligation to accept a draw, and does not deserve the abuse he has recieved in this thread for his actions.

That is all.

Jamie +1

What about refusing to pause to look for a replacement? I think that was the big problem. I don't think anyone is under the impression that he should have just clicked draw due to a CD.

I honestly think that Babs and Ivo need to either take it off line, or ignore one another and stop the personal attacks.
Jamie and Sarge, whether it is your intention or not, you guys are inciting the argument instead of allowing it to subside.

Ladies and Gentleman, this is a GAME. I know that sometimes a game can cause emotions to flare and personalities to sour, but let's try to keep the discussion on the game and less on the sportsmanship. We all have people we like to play with and people we avoid playing with. If someone asks you for your specific issues, keep it to a PM so as not to incite a bickering fight like we've had here, ok? Can we let this thread either die or continue to discuss tactics on the stalemate line without references to sportsmanship or ethics?

@fortknox: Me? I have hardly posted in this thread and have never made a judgemented comment here. The few comments I have made were light-hearted in nature.

Regardless of this specific game...

Pauses aren't obligatory. And I don't support that they should be. Of course that is my opinion. Other's may wish pauses to be obligatory or majority rules.

I would support a fixed time pause. Netflix has this for their accounts (sort of off topic but the idea works). You put in how long you want to put your account on hold, up to like 3 months, and they don't bill you assuming you return any DVDs you have at home. We could have a mechanism that everyone votes for an end date to the pause and the shortest one is implemented.

Dragnar, having in mind you proud yourself on forcing moderators to intervene and deal with your nonsense... I kind of feel sorry for Babak ghat he's getting your support. I know you refuses pauses when games don't go your way and then try to blackmail people with it.


You're also an ass for behaving like this. The difference is you feel proud of it, Babak at least tries to deny it.

@FK - I know it's a game - that's why I don't get the need to employ such tactics. Can only imagine what a real-life situation would be like.

My soccer example gives a good analogy.

I have never refused a pause. You do not know what you are talking about. I only ever once refused to unpause and that game drew. After that the mods declared that metagaming and I haven't done it again. But never, ever, have I refused to pause under *any* circumstances.

Ok, pause/unpause - my mistake for mixing up the details. This is the most important detail for sure... makes everything else invalid. Good for you.

What makes it invalid is the idea that it is plural. One time does not make a pattern and it makes you full of fucking shit for implying otherwise, cocksucker!