Miro made it clear that he does not object to Turkish membership of the Un, but not why. (apart perhaps from declaring your assumption stupid - glad to see he's consistant in attacking the validity of any arguement rather than actually debating the point...)

I wasn't to sure whether he was only attacking the assumption part. I would like to see him type the words: Turkey in the UN? No problem...

@Miro
Can I take it that you no longer consider my earlier posts racist? and accept that the issue of Armenian genocide is irrelevant?

As to why they should join:
- (as I said on page 1) 72 million people, mostly young, with low wage levels presents an attractive market and pool of labour for current members
- (as I said on another page) bringing a predominantly muslim state into a predominantly christian alliance sends a positive signal to muslims everywhere
- it provides an incentive for Turkey to address the (current) issues that you keep mentioning

@ora
"apart perhaps from declaring your assumption stupid - glad to see he's consistant in attacking the validity of any arguement rather than actually debating the point"

It just was a stupid assumption, not an argument...
and debating something includes proving the validity of an argument...

@flash
"I would like to see him type the words: Turkey in the UN? No problem... "

Why?

Again, asking for the motivation behind what he'd like to see instead of making your position known.

And yes, an arguement being invalid is worth debating, but you don't debate these point, you just assert them.

Why doesn't matter, he questioned your position on something and you have failed to clarify your position, or put forward reasons to explain why you favour membership of the UN (for Turkey) and not of the EU - if that is indeed your unclarified position...

@diplomat
"72 million people, mostly young, with low wage levels presents an attractive market and pool of labour for current members"
I think politicians will see that as a argument against the memberchip, they fear the hundreds of thousands low educated workers as a threat for their national labour markets.

@ "you have failed to clarify your position, or put forward reasons to explain why you favour membership of the UN (for Turkey) and not of the EU "

What the hell has the UN to do with the EU? I still don´t get it...

It's not my choice, but I'd probably be against Turkey joining the EU until it's no longer a jailable offense to criticize Ataturk and the civilian authority has acknowledged and real supremacy over the military if it was my choice.

Yeah, the anti-Turkish laws, the anti- Kurdish language laws, and the spectre of a loose cannon military are the three big issues about Turkish presence in the EU in my opinion.

I don't care what they did in Cyrpu decades ago asl ong as they aren't doing anything now.

The problem however with saying "fix those and we'll let you join" is that it isn't clear that anything Turkey's does will ever be enough for them to join the EU. You can't blame the political establishment for getting a tad disillusioned with the Europeans.

By anti-Turkish laws, I am referring to laws that restrict 'insulting Turkishness' that have put many of intellectuals and journalists in jail.

@Miro: politicians will be split between the populist concern about cheap labour "stealing our jobs" and the reality of an ageing population and declining tax take.

@Miro:
thanks for withdrawing you accusation of racism.

What do you see as the benefits of Turkish membership?

@diplomat

I think there are two "big" and many "less" reasons.
Turkey in 1923 startet a project to reform the old Ottoman Empire into a "western" european state. Many promisses were made by the european countries that time, so the reforms were pushed through in short time.
Now almost 90 years later, after three(?) putch (coup of the military forces) and many harsh economic times Turkey still fights for reforms. But they don´t fight against too high foreign expectations, they fight against their own nationalistic reactionary people to reform the state.
So the two big reasons (in my opinion) for a candidature are the strong will of many Turks (who often are allready europeans in mind) to stood against reactionary forces.
And the so often proven abbility of the polititians to reform, what should Austria and France make feel ashamed about their concept of "improved partnerchip".

After such a long journey from Attatürk till now, i hope Turkey can encourage their people to take the final step.

I would still like to see him type the words: Turkey in the UN? No problem...

Of course, he could also type the words: Turkey in the UN? No way!

That would at least be more in keeping with his position in this thread and allow us to draw a line under his real intention.

I suspect though that we would have to wait an awfully long time before he ever got even close to either of those statements. One, because he hates everything Turkish with a passion; and two, because he cannot bring himself to even be half honest.

'Turkey in 1923 startet a project to reform the old Ottoman Empire into a "western" european state.' - and i'm pretty sure the turkey of today compares fairly well to a European state of 1923.

@flash
"and allow us to draw a line under his real intention."
What intention? Weird sentence...

"One, because he hates everything Turkish with a passion"
Have i hurt you feelings flashyboy?

"and two, because he cannot bring himself to even be half honest. "
I´ll be honest, i don´t think your interested in your own thread anymore. So i leave you alone with your opinions, a let you hide behind your strange affinaty about my mystirious "intentions".

@Miro:
actually i think flash isn't interested in your opinion of his thread, especially when you spend your time talking about sentences, feelings of the contributors and what interests them...

but i'm glad to see you haven't addressed any of the questions put to you, at least you are consistent!

@Miro
I asked what the BENEFITS would be, you have given me two REASONS for Turks to become members, which boil down to:
- Turks are jolly good chaps, and
- stuff the French & Austrians

Is that the best you can do? Flashman is about to nobly lead (against type) a team of ace debaters into the fray and you cannot even manage to come up with one benefit?

@diplomat
"Flashman is about to nobly lead (against type) a team of ace debaters into the fray "

Are you kiding me? If that´s true i understand his strange behavior! This all is just a test for his rethoric skills, and his fanboybehavior about me is a kind of "strategy"?
I knew you both were hypocrits, this badly played outrage about me shows you can´t stand in a debate, and you are not interested in facts and turkish policies.
You are so pathetic loosers :-)

diplomat61: all I'm asking Turkey to do is admit that they perpetrated the Armenian genocide. I'm just asking them to own up to the facts. Only THEN should they be allowed to entertain ideas of joining the EU.

@Miro: what debate? We have answered all of your points yet you have never answered any of ours. As for Flashman, read his recent posts in the Afghanistan thread to know what he will be doing soon; that should stop you stupid speculation about his motives.

@Dunecat: you can ask that if you like but read my posts, I could not give a monkey's about the past. Let us focus on current problems and how to make the future better.

@diplo
you never answered any of my arguments...
no i don´t stop speculation his behaviour and his words speak another language then an interrested person. maybe your assliking in the afghanistan thread impresses him,
but not me :-)
go along and play your stupid rethoric game, i never was in it and never saw it as a game

"you can ask that if you like but read my posts, I could not give a monkey's about the past. Let us focus on current problems and how to make the future better."

Hey, I know you don't care. You're Turkish. That's the problem. That's why you can't have nice things like EU membership.

Two points:

a) yes, I shall be leading the heroic attack on world ignorance at the Heart of Europe debating tournament in August. One of the motions is the topic of this thread, and Turkey will have a team there (unless Miro can get them banned. They are all 18 or under and clearly responsible for genocide). One of the motions is about Israel and Israel will also have a team there.

The possibility exists that Israel will meet Turkey in the Final. Hmmm, I just hope I get to adjudicate that one.

b) Miro, who has since been relegated to the status of 'he'...

He has confirmed my assessment of him by simply refusing to type the words.

I would therefore add, in all humility, that 'a man who is unable to put his name to his true opinions is not a real man'. (Vito Corleone, adapted).

@Miro: sorry, I guess the "Post Reply" button got my hopes up.

@Dunecat: wrong, I am English and have no connection with Turkey.

I am delighted to hear that... ; ) (no food jokes for a long time here)

@Flashman: sorry, I got a bit cheesed off at some of the other posters and forgot to leaven my posts with a taste of humour.

@Dunecat: "all I'm asking Turkey to do is admit that they perpetrated the Armenian genocide. I'm just asking them to own up to the facts."

If my great-grandfather committed a crime, even murder, why should I be responsible? I do not understand why you want to treat a whole nation, most of whom were not alive at the time, in this way.

Note: I am not trying to deny that the genocide occurred, simply to understand your position.