Make them grovel.

EVERYTHING Babak said +1.

Except the Stalemate. Autumn 14 WAS a stalemate:

Macedonia doesn't need to guess. It can support Aegean. Black and Dacia wupport Byzantium.

*support, obviously

I agree with smiley. The rationale for Babak being a poor sport is REALLY weak. Especially about the stalemate line. The fact that he took advantage of a CD is something that many players on this site would do. I don't think he deserves the insults he is getting in this thread. All I see is people pissed because they ended up on the wrong side.

I got guilted into doing a draw because my main opponent CD'd in a gunboat (it went to the forum), and I constantly wish I had not. I literally had 18 SC's unchallengeable when I agreed to the draw (it was beginning of Autumn).

I still regret it. And to me, a stalemate isn't truly a stalemate unless you can hold it for two moves. The non-Egypt people, obviously, could not.

>Babak said: "the Greek player did not ask for a pause before he started NMRing, and I personally feel his final set of NMRs and CD was in order to help guilt the other players into canceling the game... "

This raises an interesting point here which has crossed my mind many times (especially with regards to live games): if the social convention on this site is that games should be drawn or cancelled because a player CDs, this does encourage CDing as a tactic. This is one of the reasons I am of the view that it is okay to play on despite NMRs/CDs. I think one has to take the good with the bad. And most players here play enough games that things will even out in the long run. That is, you will suffer from CDs and benefits from CDs.

Another principle that I think could help players spare themselves the pain of indignation at other players actions is this: Every player can play whichever moves they see fit regardless of whether other players think it is smart/dumb/fair/unfair. Play your own game and expect other to do the same. And don't bitch and moan about it. Have EOGs by all means and discuss the game, and if you think another player made a bad move, by all means share your thoughts. But remember, it is just a game.

Now if you feel like you would draw in such a situation, that's fine. You are generous, and it is admirable. But others not here to live to live up to your expectations, just as you are not here to live up to others expectations. Peace.

gameID=45328 is the one I drew out of shame. I for one am glad Babak didn't make the same mistake I did.

thank you spyman, SD, and TB... and =)

reading this thread over the past few days was so horrible... I wanted to respond to all those people but felt I could not.

if someone does not like playing me, dont... thats fine. I mostly sign up for high pot anon WTA games, so even if I sign up, you wont know its me anyways ;)

but one thing I will promise - every game I'm in ... I will do my utmost to get the best result I can. I don't believe in crap like "sportsmanship = letting others into a draw" ... I think in Dip, sportsmanship = getting the best result you can.

"I wanted to respond to all those people but felt I could not. "

Thank you for being the mature one, and NOT talking about it.

Babak - I will apologize for describing getting the win off of a CD as 'douchey'. You are correct that the outsiders here didn't have the right to judge you. Sorry for my part in that. I hope you realize that I still stood up for your right to play as you saw fit anyhow and that the real douches were the ones who brought it to the forum and were attempting to shame you into a specific action.

Thank you Draugnar - both for attempting to be evenhanded when so many were not, and for respecting the 'rules' of the forum and helping this community police itself. you really were the mature one in this and I do appreciate your effort to point out the HUGE problem of this thread being created in the first place.

I believe I made some negative comments towards you as well Babak, (they weren't very harsh at all) but I won't apologize. But I will clarify that my comments were in regards to your actions up until the point this thread was created. As I said, if anyone ever came to the forum to request a draw for a gunboat I was in, I would never give it to him or her.

When does the recital of Kumbaya begin? :)

Babak, every time you do something like this you excuse is "I didn't know, I didn't see it, etc."

Then, you do the same in another game.

You see, your concept that one should try to win for "four or was it six" turn after reaching a stalemate position is what creates the conditions for this mess - after all, if you are going to wait until someone makes a technical error or NMRs chances are it will happen from time to time.

So, if I somehow believed you're unable to see stalemate lines I could have been more lenient in my assessment. But I don't believe that - I think you know what you're doing - as you've stated yourself - and you claim to be a top player.

Thus, with ignorance not being the problem the only choice left us that you're an ass.

I see it as my duty to this community to chase you around for this.

Btw, I may be more vocal than others, but lately you've had a lot of top players state they are blacklisting you... and I've lost more to other, much netter players than you. Keep fooling yourself it's someone else that's the problem if it helps.

Even a worm has mire spine.

Babak +1.

Kudos to Babak for waiting until the game had finished to respond to this thread. This thread should never have happened.

Listen Babak.

First, I used no name calling. Seriously at least. If "jerkball" and "poor sport" and "low-class" are what has you upset than I shudder to think what happens when you run into people in the real world who dislike you.

Second, It's obvious to me that either 1. You're a poor tactitian. Autumn 14 WAS a stalemate. Your only hope was getting a fleet in NUM AND LEP. That never would've happened without carthage starting to move. It was impossible. OR 2. You just never really took the time to look at the board. If you genuinely, and ignorantly, thought you actually had a chance at a solo then that's fine (I'm learning this is probably the case), but it was a stalemate line.

Third, I still have the PM in which you told me to get into the game. You didn't give the password, but asked me to check my PMs.

Fourth, and once and for all please hear this, I did agree that my original thread post was out of line. I shouldn't have said what I said. But thanks for showing your character by riding the bitter train all the way to a cheap solo.

And you posted to the thread anyways, by the way. You jumped in and stated that the game wasn't stalemated.

@ bartdogg:

'jerkball' is name-calling.

Jamie I agree, but its a pretty tame name at best. Hardly worth Babak getting all flustered about it.

That said, I do apologize if "jerkball" is what has Babak upset. I shouldn't have stooped.

I think it was all the douche references.

@ Sacred- You said:
"I got guilted into doing a draw because my main opponent CD'd in a gunboat (it went to the forum), and I constantly wish I had not. I literally had 18 SC's unchallengeable when I agreed to the draw (it was beginning of Autumn).

I still regret it. And to me, a stalemate isn't truly a stalemate unless you can hold it for two moves. The non-Egypt people, obviously, could not."

That is a different situation, and you should not have drawn. Babak did not have the solo at all. And it was a stalemate line. How could Carthage and Rome honestly be expected to hold a stalemate line when Greece NMRs?

@ Smiley: You said:
""I wanted to respond to all those people but felt I could not. "

Thank you for being the mature one, and NOT talking about it."

You're wrong, he did post to the thread. He is just as guilty as I for talking about an ongoing gunboat game.

@ Jamie - You said:
"Babak +1.

Kudos to Babak for waiting until the game had finished to respond to this thread. This thread should never have happened."

Same as for Smiley. And I agree I should not have started the thread.

"And you posted to the thread anyways, by the way. You jumped in and stated that the game wasn't stalemated."

He stated that the game was not stalemated. And it wasn't. But it was very, *very* close.

And he was wrong about what he thought made it not a stalemate.

But I don't blame him for that - I've played ancient Mediterranean twice - I wouldn't have known that stalemates even existed, and as you can see in the other thread, it took about 30 minutes for abgemacht and I to figure it out.

I owe a response to Babak. I must apologize for some of my statements but there are others I will stand behind.

I should not have spoken so much about an ongoing gunboat game. Once the retreat phase ended and the Greek fleet had been disbanded the game was over. At this point I believe it was fair to speak about the game. I am sorry for talking about the game during that retreat phase, however.

The other thing I must apologize for is assuming that Egypt was withholding the password. I will trust Babak's word that he did not know the password at this point.

Now I won't apologize for anything else. I am still very much disgusted by the play of Egypt. If this was an instance of a player new to the site, things would be slightly less severe in my opinion. However, Babak, you are one of the highest rated players here. You have played enough games, gunboat or not, to know what is good and and bad sportsmanship.

There were clear requests for pauses in this game once Greece CDed. There was also a request for a replacement (which is completely acceptable). Bartdogg apologized for his error. Depsite his opinion being posted, there was still, like I said, a clear request for a replacement. This, combined with a clear request to pause in the game and the request of the password by myself add up to a clear plan to pause, replace the CDed player and continue.

It is very obvious to anyone of tactical skill that the game, had the Greece been taken over in time to give a retreat order, was completely stalemated. Therefore, it is fairly easy to see your refusal to pause as a use of non-diplomatic tools and outside of game tactics to earn a win. I see this as cheating. Severe cheating. Some disagree with me.

You have come onto this thread and said things like having never heard of gunboats being paused. I call bullshit on this completely.

After reading you defend your position I have come to the conclusion that you, Babak, are a greedy asshole with absolutely no respect for your opponents. I am unsure why you play this game. I have no understanding of how playing that game to completion was enjoyable for you. Just like someone who creates multiple accounts to win games - I cannot see how that could be fun, I cannot understand what possible benefit you are realizing by approaching the game in this way. Unless, of course your points and GR are so critical to your enjoyment of this site. If this is the case, I pity you.

Likely I will not have you in any gunboat games I will create moving forward. I urge others to help Babak learn his lesson and attempt to keep him out of your games in the future.

Babak, you *are* welcome in any game of mine any time.

@Lando: The game wasn't stalemated even with Greece.

Autumn 14 was quite clearly a stalemate. Black Sea/Dacia support Byzantium and Macedonia/Sparta support Aegean. (Obv, Sarmatia support hold Chersoneus). Carthaginian lands, same support hold orders.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea of this game is to win by way of convincing your opponents to cooperate with you and using tactical skills to achieve more than half of the supply centers of the board. With this in mind, it is quite obvious that Egypt/Babak used tools outside of diplomacy and tactical skill to win.
@Babak, by your reasoning (perhaps a few posts ago about using whatever you can to achieve the best results), then meta-gaming/multi-accounting should be allowed. As Lando said, your play-style clearly lacks respect for other players. The win was not skill-based. All of your supply centers gained after the stalemate were from a CD'd nation. (This is not to say you are an unskilled player, but this win was not achieved through diplomacy nor tactical prowess)

@Babak
Oh, and I apologize for declaring a lack of respect on your part before the game was over giving you a chance to respond. But nonetheless, my statement stands. It was just mentioned at the wrong time.

@The Situation: nope

had Egypt slid enough fleets around in North Africa he could have broken into the seas around Carthage's land irrespective of any orders from Rome

would have taken a long time, granted, but it was NOT a stalemate.

@ Eden -

I think you're wrong. If Egypt begins to slide fleets around (he needs fleets in Numidia and the three other places to break the holds) Carthage begins to move on him. I challenge you to come up with a scenario in which Egypt could possibly gain territory. And lets not forget, he was only at 16 scs at that point anyway.