I oppend up a new account because of Miroslav Kloses goal against England :-)
So the old one has to be banned because multiaccounting is not allowed, of course i wanted the old one to get banned. so i took over my old games, informed the other players and have a nickname of a footballplayer i admire.

Get it Sherlock :-)?

I am not surprised to find people like you on this page :-)
Many people are reacting this way on germans, i think there was a thread about that long time ago?

@Miro

Ok, let me try this again. Can you explain to me why you hate Turkey?

Wow i leave for a few minutes and a stupid verbal war breaks out.

@Miroi: I never accused you of being unable to understand my arguements, but instead of responding to them you called me an idiot.

You complained that I quoted wikipedia so i quoted the CIA factbook instead.

I fully admit that the militrary dictatorship in Greece which started teh trouble in Cyprus collapsed shortly after the Turkish invasion, but i had to wikipedia to get that info.

If you look at the Annan plan to resolve the crisis it seems like Turkish allies (and security council members) ie the US tried to get Turkey a really good deal on the re-unification of Cyprus, but it was rejected by all sides in Cyprus.

Further Turkey has paid millions to Greek Cypriots who have been refused access to their homes, awarded by whom? Why that European court of human rights of course.

I think the fact that Turkey paid is an indication of the fact that they are about as civilised as any other European nation.

Now apparently all this info i've garnered from various internet sources is completely wrong. In your not so humble opinion. So please quote your sources*, or shut up.

*You could also try validating your opinion in some other way...

@ora
"I think the fact that Turkey paid is an indication of the fact that they are about as civilised as any other European nation."

There are violations of human rights no EU member does in a comparable way!
The invasion of Northern Cyprus is still going on!
The Kurds are suppressed in an unacceptable way against all human rights conventions!

You have not shown any sources that show a differnet view, they all confirm these arguments! The Anan plan was naive, the Cypriotes didn´t want to cooperate with the occupying force.

So you still refuse to handle with arguments of others and still are coming up with new speculations. I don´t know how you react on the issue of the Kurds, but i think you will see it as no problem for the EU....

"The Kurds are suppressed in an unacceptable way against all human rights conventions!" - i'm pretty sure the Kurds are suppressed in a way which I don't approve of. HOW AND EVER the EU considers the PKK a terrorist group and many european nations have suppresed terrorist groups those which use violence.

I can again point to ETA in Spain. If Spain should be allowed into the EU then why not Turkey? I'm not saying I like how the Kurds are treated, I am saying that i think more can be done to influence Turkey if they join the EU than if they are refused from joining.

No i haven't shown sources which confirm your arguements. I have just shown sources of information, you are the one making arguements based on the information, i simply disagree with your conclusions.

You're going back to human rights again and yet you didn't respond to any of my quotes from Amnesty International.

Going back to human rigths? That´s my theme all over my arguments, while your are flip flopping from one corner to the other.
You compare Irelands "claims" on Northern Irland with the invasion of Cyprus.
You compare the Kurds with the ETA. I knew you would push them in the terrorists corner...
You compare the violations of human rigths, especially the ones they did to Children with a strange text about the Queen of England.
You are coming up with confuse arguments, everybody laughs about.

You should be ashamed what you say about those people, the turkish children, imprisoned journalists and authors, the Kurds and the Cypriots (who have to shut up in your opinion because they got paid for their suffering)!

I guess you are a simpleminded person, that´s no failure. But your leck of wisdom and experience is showing your missing heart for that systematic violations of humans.
Think abou your opinions from another distance a greater view and you see it´s not black or white, or every injustice is equal to other injustices.

@Flashman
The phrase about making war unthinkable is from an english translation of a speech given on May 9th 1950 by Robert Schumann, then French Foreign Minister, in which the creation of the ECSC was proposed. The date itself, May 9th, was obviously chosen as the day after VE day and is now celebrated as "Europe Day".

Full txxt here: http://europa.eu/abc/symbols/9-may/decl_en.htm

Context of ECSC here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community

Thanks Dip - I greatly appreciate the reference.

Thanks Dip, I greatly appreciate the reference.

Ah, I greatly regret the double post. Schoolboy error.

Skimming through this thread it's clear that people prefer to argue than to be right.

@Flashman, you are welcome. I admire the vision of leaders like Schumann and Adenauer, who had lived through the Great War and WW2, to rise above the inevitable hatred and try to build something to make a repeat performance impossible. Sixty years on it is easy to gripe about details, at least we are talking, and forget that the main prize that has been won. I guess the founders of the ECSC would be happy with that.

"I knew you would push them[Kurds] in the terrorists corner..."

I didn't say they were terrorists. I said the EU considers them terrorists.

@Miro: "[cypriots] who have to shut up in your opinion because they got paid for their suffering" - I never said they should shut up, they should continue to press turkey in Court, but so long as Turkey acts like a responcible, civilised nation and lives up to it's commitment to the European Court of Human Rights, accepting their rulings then they are acting well enough to be part of Europe.

I never said Cypriots should accept the occupation of their land.

You have again failed to say anything apart from ad hominem attacks without supporting your position at all.

You're basically wasting my time by not contributing so i think i'll ignore you from now on.

Boing...

@simplmindedguy

"so long as Turkey acts like a responcible, civilised nation and lives up to it's commitment to the European Court of Human Rights, accepting their rulings then they are acting well enough to be part of Europe."

They do this by suppressing the Kurds?
Occupying foreign countries?
Violating human rights of children, jounalists and more, while they hypocratically sign human rights treaties?
Denying the genocide of the Armenians?

No that country has no right to join the EU! I don´t no where you are from, but that´s not the way the Europeans do it.

Oh, shut up you racist moron. I'm also in Europe and the problem is we have too many people like you.

Which country are you from finally - Germany - do you want me to list everything your country has done wrong the last century?

Does it even cross your mind that the people that live currently in these countries might have nothing to do with what happened decades or centuries ago?

You're brainwashed and stupid enough to not see it - this is all we've learned from this thread - did you even take notice there's noone else to support your position?

Piss off back where you came from and stop trying to preach hate to others. People like you are the explanation why Hitler came to power.

Not much chance of food jokes now.

Miro: I see no-one in here disagreeing with the sentiment that dispossessed and brutalised people deserve sympathy, but you seem to take the stance that Human Rights abuses anywhere else in the world and involving any other groups than the Kurds are irrelevant.

For you, it seems that we must either support the Kurds explicitly against Turkey or we are guilty of defending the most evil nation the world has ever seen. The fact that we might have spent our whole lives trying to make a stand against hatred in a different corner of the world to Europe just doesn't measure on your scale.

You might like to know that there are a fair few people where I live who have the same sort of attitude as you. Only for them, Turkey doesn't even form part of the universe and the Kurds don't even exist in dreams: the only thing they care about is their beloved China and the only Human Rights abuses that have ever taken place were by the Japanese in Manchuria. Trying to talk about Mankind to people like this is a hopeless task.

I think therefore that you must be an honorary Chinese German...

Well said Flashman.

The important thing is Turkey resolving CURRENT issues so that it can join the EU, enabling further improvements in the quality of life of everyone living there. What happened in the PAST is irrelevant.

Using previous grievances to block progress towards peaceful, better lives is simply unacceptable. I am fed up with people - whether Kurdish, Armenian, Irish, Jewish, Palestinian, Serbian, little green men from Mars, etc. - dredging up historical iniquities to use as bargaining chips. The focus should be on solving TODAY'S problems.

@diplomat

"What happened in the PAST is irrelevant. "
I wonder where you are living, it is happening right now not in the past...

"The focus should be on solving TODAY'S problems. "
Exactly, and if that doesn´t happen it´s not worth discussing a membership.

"whether Kurdish, Armenian, Irish, Jewish, Palestinian, Serbian, little green men from Mars, etc. - dredging up historical iniquities to use as bargaining chips."
That´s a racist statement and absolutly inacceptable...

@flashman

"who have the same sort of attitude as you...
hey care about is their beloved China and the only Human Rights abuses that have ever taken place were by the Japanese in Manchuri"
You obviously don´t read my posts. I am against every violations of human rights, war and terrorism! I am speaking for protection of the weak and helpless in every country of the world.
But this is about Turkey! If you make up a thread about China i am welcoming it!

You seem to hang on politicans lips speaking of a greater supernationalistic state.
A vision where it is about timetables and financial aspeccts. Your only argument is, "if they join the Union we have more influence on them". That is absolutly naive, a natonalistic state like Turkey never wants to be lectured about their past or present government. So you have no other idea of solving the problem of the suffering and injustice but ignoring it.
It is sad that allways somebody tells the ugly truth people come up claiming "no everything is allright, no problems".

You say:"Trying to talk about Mankind to people like this is a hopeless task."
That is my point! It doesn´t matter if it is Turkey, the USA or China, but you are allways coming up wirth the argument that "if my neighbour does it, why can´t i?".
Because Human Rigths are universell!

@Miro: you have read my post but I don't think you understood it.

- I am not saying there are no problems today, my point is that today's problems are the ones that must be solved, anything else is irrelevant. Discussing such issues now as part of Turkey's membership negotiations makes absolute sense because it is a way of driving improvements.

- I am not suggesting those groups are any more or less important than others, I do not care about someone's race, religion, culture, golf handicap or whatever. How is that racist? ANYONE or ANY GROUP that uses PAST injustices to block progress should be ignored.

It seems to me that you are one of those living in the past rather than the future.

Miro, can I assume that for you Turkey should not be in the UN either?

If so, there would be a fair few other countries that would have to drop out until they admitted their sins.

'"The focus should be on solving TODAY'S problems. "
Exactly, and if that doesn´t happen it´s not worth discussing a membership.'

See once you let Turkey join they are suddenly one of the poorest regions in the EU.

Then you are required to send money to Turkey to improve infrastructure, economic activities, education...

Now no educated population has ever become more liberal, and no EU parliment would ever consider with-holding money if it suited them to influence the internal actions of a member-state.

OK, let's look at the alternative.

A free-trade agreement - Like Turkey joining the EFTA.

Cry about the Human rights record and let the nationalistic element argue that those European countries lied to Turkey about membership and should be ignored as they don't have Turkish interest in mind at all.

Nuclear war - because if you ever choose to use nuclear weapons, you might aswell use them against a nation which doesn't have any with which to respond.

Boing again (I have a few people reading this marvelous thread), I don't want to lose it.

"Should Turkey join the European Union and, if so, when?"

*As previously mentioned Yes.

Now as to when, that's a more difficult question. As soon as their economy is ready for the transition (that may mean giving the markets a 6 month heads up) AND their democracy proves it is able to make some reforms (mostly in policing, and freedom of speech) AND it's militrary shows a willingness to trust the civilian government (i suppose this has happened, but i believe they moved against Kurdish targets in Iraq without government approval in ~2006/7?, which is a bit crazy - this ignores the fact that the government approved of more recent attacks...)

There are several things criteria which has been required of other European nations, and the same should be applied to Turkey...

@orathaic and the exausted thread

You wrote:
"OK, let's look at the alternative...Nuclear war"...sorry i am still laughing...

@flash
"Miro, can I assume that for you Turkey should not be in the UN either?"
No you can´t, that´s a stupid assumption.

"...until they admitted their sins. "
You will never get it, it´s not about sins, where the hell do you get that???
It is about the what they do in presence, and once again:
No guaranteed human rights, no peace, no protection of minorites means no EU membership.

@Miro
"You will never get it, it´s not about sins, where the hell do you get that???"
Because you keep bringing up the issue of Armenian genocide.

"It is about the what they do in presence, and once again: No guaranteed human rights, no peace, no protection of minorites means no EU membership."
I think most of us agree that there are things to be sorted out before EU membership can be agreed.

After this comment:
"I think most of us agree that there are things to be sorted out before EU membership can be agreed."
i think, maybe the thread exhausted the argumentations about "why NOT".
So let´s focus on the arguments for the EU-membership of Turkey! A much more interresting part for me. Any ideas?