@Putin:

"The whole point is about protesting the influence of money in politics"

Form a government WITHOUT money or a system of currency to pay for things.

THEN you can preach to me about how governments can't and shouldn't be influenced by money.

Hate to break it to you, but even your beloved USSR had to use some cash, and where that cash went WAS a form of influence.

@Obi - One simple questionfor you... Why the fuck do you care if they waste their time? It's not like their living on wlefare out there. When they run out of mommy and daddy's money, they'll go back to their part time jobs flipping burgers while going to grad school or whatever. So long as nobody takes from me things I value or money they don't have a legitimate need for (i.e. no deadbeats allowed on my tax dime and no squatters/thieves in my house), I don't honestly give a fuck what anybody does with their life and time.

@Draug:

"Why the fuck do you care if they waste their time?"

1. They're making my wing--the ELft Wing--look bad politically
2. They're making my generation as a whole look like a bunch of whiners
3. They're not being productive members, and yeah, that bugs me
4. They have the audacity to bemoan their status when so many are far worse off
5. They have the audacity to compare their movement to the Egypt rallies

For starters.

*Left wing

Oh, and a bonus:

6. Most of what they say is either A. Rhetorical bullshit or B. Something I disagree with vehemently

And a corollary, what the fuck do you do all day long that is so much more important? Write on this message board (likes that's going to be important? Read Shakespearean Sonnets? Muse about how much smarter than segments of the population you are. I mean come on. You aren't Thomas Alva Edison here. They are doing the same shit you do all day, accept it seems you are angry because they do it where other people can see.

you aren't left wing from your comments here

"1. They're making my wing--the ELft Wing--look bad politically"

On the contrary, they are making it look good. they are standing up. It's you who are making yourself look bad by bitching about people who are standing up for themselves. You wish you had the balls that they do.

2. They're making my generation as a whole look like a bunch of whiners

Again, they are making your generation look good, but standing up and doing something about what they believe is wrong.

3. They're not being productive members, and yeah, that bugs me

protesting is productive, obi. What isn't productive is sitting here bitching about them. Go do something about it.

4. They have the audacity to bemoan their status when so many are far worse off

So they can only have the audacity to protest when everyone is at the same impoverished level? You are ridiculous.

5. They have the audacity to compare their movement to the Egypt rallies

The Egyption rallies were about much the same thing. Oppression...be it physical, political or economical.

These movements are all tied to the same thing, obi. Open your eyes. The world is on the brink of a revolution.

@Santa:
And a corollary, what the fuck do you do all day long that is so much more important? Write on this message board (likes that's going to be important? Read Shakespearean Sonnets? Muse about how much smarter than segments of the population you are."

1. I go to 5 classes, tutor people both regularly and do one-time and spot appointments, work in the Model UN, and write Dissertation-length papers--17 and 26 pages for two essays this semester, both only had to be 4, the first I got the same A I always get and good praise for it--which is school praise, whatever, but at least essay writing for class is more productive than stripping in the steets--and the second we'll see, yet to get it back...I do research for my positions to argue for Model UN...I job hunt...I look at other colleges where I might hopefully get a Masters someday...I play my college career out and make sure I'm on track...

And THEN I come here and fuck around.

So sorry, SC--except for breaks, I spend little time here (my posts are still long, as I type fast and so can type a lot in a short space of time, hence my paper lengths, I did those 17 and 26 page papers in one and one and a half nights, respectively, so I still have a lot of texts ehre, but actually spend little time looking at WebDip during "on-hours" of the day when I'm in school...on break, yeah, I'll fuck around all day if I please, but hey, I'm on break, that's fair.)

2. I have three ENG anthology collections to read for my three classes--though if I read them or not depends on if I feel like it or not...usually I already know the author being taught, or a similar author, and I do well in ENG doing it my way, so whatever--and I try to read 1 philosophy/political book and 1 Literature book of my choosing on my own free time/on the bus, both because I like reading and those topics and because I've found reading those extra books really helps in class--and subsequently, helps in life, as its BECAUSE I know Shakespeare so well and quote him so much that my professors send all their struggling kids to ME for tutoring when they're doing Shakespeare, and I get a lot of other students that way too, by impressing the student or teacher enough with my writing and understanding of the material and extra work at it...so yeah, I'll read extra books-0-right now I'm reading Dostoyevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov" after a friend kept getting on my about Dostoyevsky being probably the biggest authhr I'd yet to read...it's OK, the characters and their discussions are well-developed, but the plot really is clunky and bogged down, hope it picks up...

But I digress.

I'm an ENGLISH major--despite my typos--SC, and I tutor for ENGLISH.

If I feel like I need to read more in order to do better in class and for tutoring to make some cash, I WILL...and so far, hey, it's worked.

3. I'd say MOST here are smarter than the segment of the popualtion I'm talking about, but yeah--sorry, I recognize the fact tbhat I'm worse than others at things--MATH--and better at other areas...and I'll acknowledge that fact without feeling shy about doing so.

Sorry.

4. They're NOT doing the same shit I do all day, because ALL DAY I'M IN CLASS OR WORKING PRETTY MUCH. 12-hour days, 7am-7pm. And when I DO talk about ideas I have, generally do it on my free time--you'll notice I haven't done a "Philosophy Weekly" thread since I started classes again--and NOT when I should be a productive member of society...I go to class, get good grades, and tutor--it's not a lot, but its what I can do, and it's better than whining around and doing nothing, or, rather, doing "something" in making a mockery of the left wing, which brings me too...

5. I am left wing.

Or at least center-left.

I've knocked every GOP candidate.
I've knocked Bush.
I've knocked Reagan.

I've defended Obama.
I've defended Hillary.
I've defended liberal policies.

I believe in pro-active government, not reactive, status-quo government.

I've argued here for gay rights.

I'm anti-Christianity here and agnostic metaphysically and ethically I hold that you should live an atheistic life, and then if there's an afterlife, worry about it then.

I've argued for Locke and Mill, both cornerstones of liberal politics.

What more do you want--to see my card?

@ Stressed

"For the man who said "France didnt fight"...wrong, 360,000 frenchmen died/wounded, and 160,000 Germans."

And I said I have the utmost respect for the French soldiers and civilians who gave their lives. I criticized the actions of the French leadership. Either surrender as soon as defeat is certain, or defend your country to the last man. But don't piss away 360,000 lives for nothing.

on what planet is a 26 page paper a dissertation length paper? I wrote 120 pages on my senior thesis for chrissakes. Since when is writing those length papers in one night a major event? Its called "College." Anyone in the humanities have done it.

And what makes you think those protesters aren't doing the same exact shit you are doing and in their spare time they occupy wall street. Half (or more) the kids probably go to school in the city, take the subway to classes and work and do homework in their tents if they are hardcore (like those in my school, probably well represented on Wall Street, did during the annual tent protest). Those who aren't probably show up for an hour or two in their spare time. Again the only difference is they put their faces and reputations on the line while you (and me) fire off anonymously over the internet.

Your TC like charges of laziness and god knows what else are unfounded and illogical just like his. You don't know those people. You can judge their ideas, you can't judge who they are.

17 and 26 that is. Even I'm not crazy enough to do a 120 in one night. The 30 page chapters however...

"But don't piss away 360,000 lives for nothing. "

Um so they were supposed to surrender when the germans showed up on the border? It seems they did exactly what you suggest. They fought like hell for a month and when victory was gone they surrendered, what exactly is your problem.

"on what planet is a 26 page paper a dissertation length paper? I wrote 120 pages on my senior thesis for chrissakes. Since when is writing those length papers in one night a major event? Its called "College." Anyone in the humanities have done it."

I meant "dissertation" more colloquially than literally there...as in, it's so effing long...which I'm sure professors enjoy about as much as everyone here LOVES my epic, blocky, ommyeffinggodshutipobi!-length posts. :p

"Since when is writing those length papers in one night a major event? Its called "College." Anyone in the humanities have done it."

I don't think I said it was a major, ground-breaking event...just something I do...???

"And what makes you think those protesters aren't doing the same exact shit you are doing and in their spare time they occupy wall street."

The tents and their ons-ite insistance that they camp out there is a good insistance they're not just dropping by on their off time.

"You can judge their ideas, you can't judge who they are."

And I've been judging their ideas to be stupid, lazy, over-reaching, pie-in-the-sky, contradictory, and so on and so forth...

I think I've been consistent in my indictment of them there.

"The tents and their ons-ite insistance that they camp out there is a good insistance they're not just dropping by on their off time. "

You are completely wrong. I have experience with my schools Tent protests and people are hitting the books all the time in those tents. Its not the only thing they are hitting, but then again not anymore than any other college student.

"Get a job or, failing that, get a LIFE."

Seems like you are critiquing much more than their ideas

I'd say their ideas are a reflection of who they are...

That IS what makes us who we are--our experiences and ideas and such?

After all, if someone came up to yu and said thought Hitler had a great idea and all Jews should die, wouldn't that reflect upon the person themself and NOT merely just be their ideas?

"You are completely wrong. I have experience with my schools Tent protests and people are hitting the books all the time in those tents. Its not the only thing they are hitting, but then again not anymore than any other college student."

Fair enough...I'm not in the tents--obviously and happily--so I suppose I can't say they're not studying...

But by that same token, they're still not going ti work or class being camped out like that, and as, again, what we're seeing is primarily a circus sort of atmosphere, I WOULD ask jsut how much studying or work they're doing in those tents...but whatever...

"But by that same token, they're still not going ti work or class being camped out like that"

Have you ever heard of the subway obi? Or perhaps friends to watch tents? or perhaps collapsible tents? Again you have no idea.

How do they eat Obi? I was under the impression they stay at their tents 24/7 and sing kumbiaia around a garbage can fire while lapping up rain water from potholes

Sorry to go back two pages Gunfighter, but I thought I might be a bit rude to leave you hanging.
"Yeah, they also forced people to move to collective farms etc. You can have your damn abortions and homosexuality. I'll take real freedom. It's funny that liberals only care about freedom when the words "abortion" and "homosexuality"."

A) Yes, capitalism is real freedom. Freedom to be oppressed and exploited. Also, if you notice, I mentioned worker self-management, the creation of the soviets allowed workers to take control of the means of production. But I can't say much if you think the choice between wage slavery and starvation is a real choice.
B) If you will also notice, collectivisation occurred under Stalin, a man I quite dislike.

I did not say you live a bourgeois lifestyle. What I said is that you are a police officer, and that the main job of the institution as a whole is to protect capital and the state.

I never said the Tea Party have no aim or direction. They do, and they are against the status quo, but in a direction I disagree with.

obi-goof typed,..."I'm an ENGLISH major--despite my typos..."
################################################################
So you say.

You neglected to mention,"despite my inability to compose a proper sentence".

It's a minor detail, but you should probably work on it.
##############################################################
Jamiet99Uk typed,..."No. You tax their profits, not their overheads."

obi-oblivious responded..."I'm not sure what distinction you're going for...which is probably my fault in a lack of understanding (or at least a lack in recognizing terms here) so...explain?"
################################################################
You don't know the difference between profits and overhead?

Really?

You're a moron.

@ obiwanobiwan:

"You misunderstood. :) Money is *A* form of free speech...not *THE ONLY* form. You do NOT need money to make your voices heard or count."

Ok, thanks for clarifying what you were saying. I still think it's a problem that those with money seem to have a louder voice than those without, and I still support the protesters for challenging this.


Ok, now a bit of economics.

YOU: "If you over-tax a corporation, then they have less money and can't, you know, HIRE"

ME: "No. You tax their profits, not their overheads."

YOU: "I'm not sure what distinction you're going for...which is probably my fault in a lack of understanding (or at least a lack in recognizing terms here) so...explain?"

Basically, staff wages are an overhead - part of your running costs as a business. You take account of your overheads *before* declaring your profits. So a tax on profits does *not* take away money that would have been used to pay the wages of your staff. So you can increase taxes on business profits, and that doesn't stop them from hiring, contrary to what you suggested. Clear now?


I still don't agree with you on the issue of human nature but I think it's pretty clear I'm not going to change your view. Human nature can change through nurture, whatever Thomas Hobbes might say. So I'm not going to comment further on this - I've given my opinion, and I'm sticking by it.



Finally, stop calling yourself left wing. It's clear from this thread that you are, at best, slap bang in the centre, if not slightly to the right. Defending Obama and Hillary does not make you left wing. They are both centre-right politicians. The idea that the Republicans are right wing and the Democrats are left wing is a laughable nonsense. The Democrats are a moderate centre-right party, and the Republicans are a very right-wing party. The Democrats are *not* left wing from the point of view of most of the world.

"Case in point--and I know I've been using them a lot this thread--Egypt's rallies.

Those citizens were genuinely impoverished, but they still had voices that were heard, made them heard, and made sure those voices mattered."

i'm pretty sure the protesters were middle class, at least by Egyptian standards.

Second, corporations clearly are the head of a power structure in the US. The government is not able to raise taxes on them (perhaps out of fear that they will leave and take their jobs elsewhere) Then corporations choose to spend their money (defined as 'free speech' apparently and thus protected by the constitution) on what they want the government to do.

The simple way of looking at it is that corporations are people - the basic unit of society - and the more money they have, the more influence they have. Thus american society is not a representative democracy, controlled by one vote per person, it is controlled by corporations dictating policy to potential candidates, and those candidates lying to the public to get elected.

The elected representatives may even believe they are doing their constituents the best deal they can achieve, and thus working for a better society. They are part of a large self-organised system which they do not control (in-fact no single individual controls society, however it definitely self-regulates) And they are likely doing their best within that system...

"1. They're making my wing--the ELft Wing--look bad politically"

it is such a pity that you live in a restricted two-party system, alsmot as bad as China's one party system. In any european democracy they would identify with a seperate party (from your more moderate left wing politics, though i think in europe your 'left wing' would be center right at least) And you would not be facing this problem. But i guess one reform fight at a time will have to do...

"3. They're not being productive members, and yeah, that bugs me" as a socialist i find this a valid arguement - except that THEY see what they are doing as having value, and thus they are being productive - the are producing noise, and if they can improve the system then this is invaluable to society. The fact that you disagree with what counts as productive isn't really a problem in my mind, mostly because your society is supposed to have some level personal freedom to decide for yourselfs what is the best direction for your society to take.


"4. They have the audacity to bemoan their status when so many are far worse off" - that's crap. The poorest in your society don't have the time or means to protest, thus the people who work hard and are just making a living but feel the system is setup to screw them shouldn't protest? So in your warped mind, who SHOULD protest?? Only the worst off? perhaps the corporations which have the least corporate loop-holes to exploit, they are far worse off than the middle class compared with the super-rich corps which pay nothing...

"5. They have the audacity to compare their movement to the Egypt rallies" - they are a grass roots movement attempting to remove a corrupt system. This looks like a pretty good comparison to me.

as for self-interest, this is a part of human nature, however this is not the same thing as greed.

Greed is defined as taking more than is in your self-interest, usually considered a bad thing because it is at the expense of others (at least in a system with finite resources)

@Jamie:

"Basically, staff wages are an overhead - part of your running costs as a business. You take account of your overheads *before* declaring your profits. So a tax on profits does *not* take away money that would have been used to pay the wages of your staff. So you can increase taxes on business profits, and that doesn't stop them from hiring, contrary to what you suggested. Clear now?

Yes, thank you for the term clarification.

"I still don't agree with you on the issue of human nature but I think it's pretty clear I'm not going to change your view. Human nature can change through nurture, whatever Thomas Hobbes might say. So I'm not going to comment further on this - I've given my opinion, and I'm sticking by it."

Well, its not so much human nature as living, animal nature here I'm arguing for, that is, that ANY living organism in the animal kingdom will act out of self-interest because the primary self-interest is to SURVIVE...and you can't nurture that out of a human being, to make them not care about living or their own survival...well, I suppose you cAN, but not in any good way,k the drive to survive is pretty much as close as you can get to something a human being must have...without it...that'd be a sorry sight, really... :/

"Finally, stop calling yourself left wing. It's clear from this thread that you are, at best, slap bang in the centre, if not slightly to the right. Defending Obama and Hillary does not make you left wing. They are both centre-right politicians. The idea that the Republicans are right wing and the Democrats are left wing is a laughable nonsense. The Democrats are a moderate centre-right party, and the Republicans are a very right-wing party. The Democrats are *not* left wing from the point of view of most of the world."

Well, I'm just using "Left" as the term applies to my neck of the woods...

And here in the USA, the Democrats--theoretically--are Left-wing Commies, and the Republicans are Right-wing Fascists. (Maybe not that extreme, but still...) :p

Someone once told me they thought a good way to approach politics was to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

I agree with that sentiment, and I suppose that's my stance here:

Fiscally I'm being conservative and scorn these guys...

Socially, yes, I'd like to see reforms for LGBT folks and a better immigration system so we can both cut down on illegals AND keep folks coming in legally, since immigrants literally built this country, and better education, and so on and so forth.

and your point about human self-interest makes me think of something.

If the people who control the us feel threatened by these protests then they will act in their own self-interest to protect themselves, either by attacking the protesters to try and stop them (as the police appeared to be doing) or by co-operating with the protesters demands to reduce their power.

We will see if this actually produces the desired result, or anything like it. I fear the US is too big to be overturned by one small protest movement.

If the US is overturned by a few kids kvetching in the park together...

I'm leaving for a coun try that actually HASN'T completely failed with this last generation...

I'd say England, but it sounds like they're having similar "entitlement" problems with their ilk in my generation, too...

Maybe Canada...yeah. Nice, safe, friendly Canada...nothing controversial ever happens in Canada...the worse outcry they have is when Bettman steals their hockey teams, and they just got one back...and hey, they ahve great helath cae (I'm kidding here, obviously, so no one message me an essay on why universal health care sucks--I'd like to see it, I don't think anyone has got it down 100% correctly yet, that is all...go Ducks, 1-0 over the Rangers at the end of the first period from Sweden.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo2lfXC41Lg&feature=BFa&list=PLD7B0DBD8C28BDEA2&lf=edu

yeah, universal health care sucks, that's why other developed countries pay less for better increases in life expectancy... according to stanford...

That said, this 'entitlement' problem you are seeing may actually exist. People were raised with an idea that they would actually live in a society where individuals were a valued and integral part of society, and when cruel reality hit them in the face and showed them that banks and corporations are more important than people they responded with this back-lash.

I'm not sure i see this as a bad thing. Just a thing.