8 iWHat about Italy trying to operate in both ends of the Med?

That might take six. And eventually two of them would become useless for advancing your position. They'd probably end up holding sev. You'd initially need three or four to take care of turkey and then at least two of those would swing back west to join the other two you had built to take on France.

Italy winning with POR through SEV can use fleets in BLS, ARM, POR, SPA, WMS, NAf, GoL and maybe even MAR. That would be 8.

Exactly Lando. Italy needs about 6 armies to hold everything south of the MUN-SEV line. Typically all the rest of the traditional 18 will be coastal. What's the point of more armies?

*in reference to the 2:43 GMT post. you guys are too fast!

Ideally though if I'm Italy I don't want to build more than four.

Turkey and Austria I don't think I would ever build more than 4. Maybe 5?

France and Russia can both win with anywhere from 4 to 8 fleets.

Germany I don't want more than four.

England can have a wider range but I think 5 or 6 is probably the sweet spot and some will probably end up holding stp and doing nothing else.

Well, all I can say is if lando and jmeyers wanna join an anonymOus game and commit tO building all those fleets then sign me up :P

Sorry, I am not saying you always want to do that. Just that sometimes you need to and it can work.

Ha! Exactly :)

Having an imbalance can be advantageous if you have an ally with the opposite imbalance. You combine for a solid ratio and because of the different types of units it creates less reason/opportunity to stab which, in turn, engenders trust.

If you're building more than 4 fleets as Austria, you're doing it wrong.

I dunno. I think it definitely comes down to what country you are, more than anything a lot of the time. England always seems to be around 2/3s fleets and that works well. Austria is almost exclusively a land power, and everyone else kinda fits in between there. Turkey and Italy tend to do well with lots of fleets. Russia seems more oriented towards armies. Germany and France can go either way, in my experience.

Actually it was me who asked, and I'd be interested in your use rather than jow many you build, obviously dependent on many factors. My preliminary conclusion: when in doubt, leave them in the seas, never on land.

Redhouse - in general I think you're right that fleets shOuld be used to advance your position in the water. However, it would be a mistake to set out to purposely never move a fleet onto land.

Fleets in land provinces can be used effectively to leverage water provinces. For instance, a fleet in Spain SC influences WMed and MAO. If you're trying to seal the Med from either direction, you MUST have some fleets in land provinces.

Anyone else want to create a game and try to win with 12 fleets, now? It almost seems like an impossible challenge to attempt ;)

Like...we all agree 5 armies max?

For the number of fleets and armies a country typically has for the win, I did a statistical analysis of that (surprise). Each country sees differing amounts of fleets in most games.

Austria: Often has between 2 and 5 fleets the entire game, it's only one of 2 countries that can solo with it's original number of fleets. Clearly, being a land-based country has it's advantages.

England: This is a very fleet-heavy country and it often has 50-60% of its units as fleets. The end games often see between 6-10 fleets, sometimes more. Since it's on an island, it will clearly need more fleets than most of the other nations.

France: This is a strangely fluid country and the ranges for the number of fleets and armies on the map is pretty broad. Most games saw an even distribution of fleets to armies (8 of each by the endgame) with typically one or two more armies than fleets overall. The fact that it can move north and south for a victory shows the need for a nice mix of fleets, but armies are necessary as well to help support fleet movement along coastal zones.

Germany: Similar to Austria, Germany is pretty army-dominant, although most games saw about 4 or 5 fleets and upwards of 7, although armies are typically the dominant unit since it often finds its centers for victory at locations that can easily be reached by land.

Italy: Another fleet-heavy country, being a peninsula, it's often found with 40-50% fleets. After it makes headway along the sea-zones, the armies are used to control certain locations that the fleets can't access easily, especially the land-locked centers like Vienna, Budapest, Munich, and Paris.

Russia: Having 2 coastlines should indicate more fleets than most countries, but this isn't often the case. Most games see Russian militaries with up to 14 armies at the end of the game while many games only saw 4-7 fleets divided between its two coasts. The only locations it really needs the fleets for is Scandinavia, England and control of Italy/Tunis.

Turkey: A slightly more army-dominant nation, it's similar to Italy in terms of unit output: 40-50% fleets and the average game sees 6 fleets and 10 armies at the end. Clearly, control of Austria and Russia require a ton of armies, but control of italy and France requires a healthy supply of fleets.

Also, the map has well more coastal centers than land-locked centers with only 7 that are accessible by armies only, and the remaining 27 can be reached by fleets along coastlines. Also, there are only 4 locations that require a fleet to access, 3 of which are in England.

For the record, England had a few games in my study where it won with 12 fleets and France and Turkey came close to that amount.

your stats are mostly indicate the right strategy. I disagree with England needing that many fleets. England would fare better overall if the people playing it would build less fleets. Italy also doesn't need that many fleets unless they intend to keep turkey alive. Turkey almost never needs more than 5 and would be better off with 4.

I will admit that most english do make more fleets than it needs. Ivo always had a number (I think it was 4 by midgame, 5-6 by endgame), where if you are at it, you can still win, but once you go over, while you will have a great defense for your nation, you won't have the attacking and invasion power to succeed in a solo.

I have to say it depends from game to game. There are many different ways to get to 18. For example if you are Turkey and plan to get to MAO, Por, Spain for the 18 because you have a Juggernaut going on you will need much more fleets than if you begin allied with Italy and go against Austria and Russia. Situation in which you will need much more armies. My take on it is that those stats are excellent because they denote the most common formulas for success. Whether they were the most efficient or not should not really matter as long as they were successful. I for one tend to play with lots of fleets because I am not afraid to use them in land territories.

As turkey in a Jug, I recommend 5. You can do 4, but it makes life harder. You're going to be backed up with too many armies anyways until you break free into france, so you are better off enjoying the naval superiority... if France has 3 fleets, 5 on 3 guarantees victory and a breakthrough into the MAO (barring english help).... 4 on 3 is a tougher game since you risk him breaking through your defenses if he gets lucky.

I still see England as a strong naval power. Remember that of the 18 centers needed to win, only 2 are accessible by land only: Paris and Munich. Very rarely will England dip into Austrian soil for some more and I strongly agree with the 50% ratio because for England, they have more retreat options than armies under tense situations. Plus, the only way to move from German territory into French soil requires a strong fleet presence. Additionally, if France builds 50%, England needs the naval advantage in order to overcome him.

I do agree that many Italians build one or two too many but I do agree with the 40% approximation. Also, remember that my numbers come directly from solo games and not draws, so a 60% fleet England can and does win.

I typically build one fleet for every two armies as Italy. Yeah, Italy IS a peninsula, but all the good stuff requires armies to take.

So how do your numbers look for England in terms of overall solos? Does England solo more often than other countries or less often? My guess is less often and I think it is because most Englands build too many fleets.

though it is trite to say, every game with every different country is unique ... roll with the punches and adapt to each situation, fleet or army ... you folks are over-thinking it

I think we should write a book called The Diplomat.

The points made by some of you heavily remind me of The Prince.

And his chapters were always titled:
On...

The Diplomat
Chapter 7:
On usage of fleets

"not as smart"

@Jacob: My numbers are merely the illustration of a trend. The range for English fleet production is from 3-12 while the army spread is 4-11. most games have the winner at about 16 units on the map and I think that 7-8 fleets isn't a bad number. If you look at the centers that England usually controls at the end of the game, its often France and Iberia, Scandinavia, Germany, St Pete or other areas of Russia (north of Sev) and the Italian centers. More often, England dips down into Italy crossing the Med for #18. If you go this route, you need more fleets. If you choose to go into further parts of Russia, then you need more armies.

The ultimate question is "where do I see my 18 centers", and a lot of the time, English gains stop at St Pete and/or Warsaw. Moscow isn't a frequent build, but Tunis is.

Also, the numbers I'm showing have nothing to do with "does England solo less or more often with 8 fleets?" because all the games I looked at were solos, and they're assumed to be average wins. Thus, in order to see the mean English win/draw rate, you can expect anywhere from 4-12 fleets on the map (avg 8). I tend to have about 40% of my units as fleets.