in the case of the revolution economic explanations are more powerful, but then again are not sufficient, much like the Progressive flagship argument, that the constitution was decided purely for moneyed interests.

@ Santa I think that I am finished arguing with you too, although no doubt you will want to get the last word in. My only point was that, in my opinion, the war did not have a single cause and that economic issues too were important. It is a pity that you and someone else have sprinkled your replies with liberal doses of insults, I think that the record shows that I have refrained from responding in kind. Make of that what you will.

I can only repeat the statement with which I commenced the discourse.
This website has a well-reasoned piece on the subject http://www.kosmosonline.org/group-post/did-tariffs-really-cause-civil-war-morrill-act-150

''A measured and factually grounded take of the tariff issue reveals its dramatic resurgence between 1858-61 as the national political climate collapsed and pre-war sectional divisions reached a fever pitch. The issue directly contributed to those divisions, particularly as it arrived in the Senate during the "Secession Winter" to add its own havoc to a rapidly growing perfect storm. Though it is not a complete or full explanation of the Civil War itself, it should be viewed as an indicator of the war's complexity. Simplistic, single-issue explanations of large political and military upheavals seldom work under scrutiny, and the tariff is one such sign of how the economic dimensions of secession overlapped and intertwined with the Civil War's moral questions about slavery and political questions about sectionalism.''

Thank you for your attention.

I love how I get the Voldemort treatment from Fulham. I am "he-who-shall-not-be-named". Just like my arguments are "they-that-shall-not-be-addressed".

Thank you for your inattention.

Putin you are a rude, self-satisfied, smug bastard with an over-inflated view of your own intelligence. Furthermore, I think that this is a pretty widespread opinion on this site. I would not to talk to you if I met you at an academic conference or, even, in a pub, and I don't see why I should talk to you now. Go away and learn some manners and a touch of humility too.

You are wasting your breath, fulhamish. He gets off on the attention and anything you say to insult him he puts down to his "intellectual superiority" somehow threatening you.

the rape of nanking
'nuff said

"Putin you are a rude, self-satisfied, smug bastard with an over-inflated view of your own intelligence."

This coming from someone who repeatedly dismisses every single social science as pseudo-science and continually insinuates that evolutionary biologists are closet Nazis. Your version of a discussion/debate is to quote mine for unsourced quotations from blogs which agree with you and to engage in character assassination of particular characters you don't like. Yes, Fulham, you're the very model of humility, good manners, and open-mindedness to others points of view (I'm sure everyone agrees, since Fulham has his finger on the pulse of public opinion here).

"I would not to talk to you if I met you at an academic conference or, even, in a pub, and I don't see why I should talk to you now."

I'm sure I'm losing out on great conversation and company. As if you'd ever show up to an academic conference that wasn't rooted in your own narrow (hitherto unnamed) "scientific" field which you think is self-evidently superior to any academic work anybody else does.

lol the only reason you guys care about the nips is because most of you are probably video game nerds and you want to be one of them

XAQ, Madcat991: "Jap" and "nip" are hateful slurs and should not be used on this forum.

I agree with airborne, Ivo, and youradhere: war is horrible and combatants and noncombatants are often the victim of atrocity. This is not moral equivalency; no one can deny the unprecedented scale of the atrocities committed by the Japanese forces, just as no one can deny the scale of the crimes committed by Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. While we may not be able to prevent all future wars,at least we have institutions today such as the International Criminal Court so there is the hope that war criminals will eventually be brought to justice.

Furball, Putin: You seem to be arguing that Japan has not faced up to or properly atoned for the crimes it committed. I disagree with you and believe that the evidence supports my position.

Japan has repeatedly apologized for starting World War Two and paid reparations to the countries that were occupied and invaded, beginning with the Treaty of San Francisco and most forcefully in the Murayama Proclamation of 1995. Many Japanese war criminals were tried at the Tokyo War Trials and executed. I agree that some war criminals were not tried, notably the members of Unit 731 and (in my opinion) Emperor Hirohito. However the decision not to punish these individuals were made by the United States occupying forces as part of Cold War calculations, so we Americans must share responsibility for these facts.

As for the textbook argument, as in other countries, there are many approved history books available and the decision on which to use is up to the local school boards. The ones raised by the international media are not the ones typically used in Japanese schools. All educated Japanese are aware that Japan started the war and of the atrocities committed in Korea, China, and the rest of Asia. Attempts by fringe rightwing groups including the yakuza to deny or rationalize Japan's crimes do not represent the view of mainstream Japanese people.

There are some territorial disputes about small rocks in the ocean with Korea and China, but these are separate issues from war crimes or war responsibility. The biggest dispute is between Russia and Japan regarding 4 small island and islet groups north of Hokkaido. Russia and Japan still have not signed a peace treaty because they cannot resolve this issue, but even these islands are small and irrelevant.

I live in Japan so you are free to view my opinion as biased, however I have also lived and traveled extensively in Asia and feel that I can see both sides. Japan started a war and experienced unconditional hardship and defeat. Japanese view this as the greatest mistake in their history and regret it deeply. They have apologized to their neighbors, and have worked to be a peaceful contributor to global society ever since.

"Japan has repeatedly apologized for starting World War Two and paid reparations to the countries that were occupied and invaded"

No it has not. No resolution offering an official apology from the country of Japan has ever passed the Diet. No Prime Minister has ever visited memorials for the victims of Japanese atrocities, like the German Prime Minister has done at the memorials for the Holocaust victims. Personal apologies have taken place from various individuals, but Japan as a whole has *never* apologized. Look up the attempted apology resolution in 1995. Only 1/3 of Diet members voted for it. I don't believe another has been attempted since. Furthermore, Japan has never admitted to violating any law, or apologized for any particular acts.

Japan also refused to compensate women who were forced into sex slavery, namely from the Philippines and Korea. A former Prime Minister even insisted that no such sex slavery ever took place. So much for atonement.

As for reparations, no reparations were paid to China. Let's get that straight. In 1972 an "agreement" was made in which China said they would no longer press Japan for reparations and indemnity. Why did they do this? Because Mao got Japan to repudiate its relations with Taiwan and recognize the PRC as the legal government of China and Taiwan as part of China. The price of that agreement was the indemnity.

No reparations have even been paid to Taiwan either, Japan's good buddy. Taiwan renounced their claims at US insistence.

As for the textbooks, while it is true that few school districts have adopted, the fact is that the revisionist textbooks have sound hundreds of thousands of copies. So the average Japanese view of this matter is not as clear-cut as you make it.

*have sold

I didn't mention, of course, the Yakusuni shrine issue. The fact that Japan, while having individuals "apologize" in one breath, has dozens upon dozens of politicians visit that shrine and show their respects to war criminals.

Japan's lack of the word apology is a cultural thing...

Toward the end of the Occupation of Japan, Emperor Hirohito let it be known to SCAP that he was prepared to apologize formally to Gen. MacArthur for Japan's actions during World War II—including an apology for the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor.

Patrick Lennox Tierney was an eye-witness on the day the Emperor came to SCAP headquarters to present this apology. When the emperor arrived, MacArthur refused to admit him or acknowledge him. When this happened, Tierney was in his office on the fifth floor of the Dai-Ichi Insurance Building in Tokyo. This was the same floor where MacArthur's suite was situated.

The pivotal moment passed. Many years later, Tierney made an effort to explain his understanding of the significance of what he had personally witnessed: "Apology is a very important thing in Japan." Issues which might have been addressed were allowed to remain open, and unanticipated consequences have unfolded across the decades since then.

1957. Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke. "We view with deep regret the vexation we caused to the people of Burma in the war just passed. In a desire to atone, if only partially, for the pain suffered, Japan is prepared to meet fully and with goodwill its obligations for war reparations. The Japan of today is not the Japan of the past, but, as its Constitution indicates, is a peace-loving nation."

Also in 1957. Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke. "It is my official duty, and my personal desire, to express to you and through you to the people of Australia, our heartfelt sorrow for what occurred in the war."

September 29, 1972. Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka. "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself. Further, the Japanese side reaffirms its position that it intends to realize the normalization of relations between the two countries from the stand of fully understanding 'the three principles for the restoration of relations' put forward by the Government of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese side expresses its welcome for this" (Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China).

As you can see, the word apology doesn't appear anywhere officially, but that would change in the 90s...

July 6, 1992. Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato. "The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called 'wartime comfort women,' irrespective of their nationality or place of birth. With profound remorse and determination that such a mistake must never be repeated, Japan will maintain its stance as a pacifist nation and will endeavor to build up new future-oriented relations with the Republic of Korea and with other countries and regions in Asia. As I listen to many people, I feel truly grieved for this issue. By listening to the opinions of people from various directions, I would like to consider sincerely in what way we can express our feelings to those who suffered such hardship"

August 4, 1993. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno. "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women"

But these were all directed to the women forced into sex slavery, not to the nations for the invasion thereof. Then, finally on August 23, 1993...

Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa. "After 48 years from then, our nation has become one of nations that enjoy prosperity and peace. We must not forget that it is founded on the ultimate sacrifices in the last war, and a product of the achievements of the people of the previous generations. We would like to take this opportunity to clearly express our remorse for the past and a new determination to the world. Firstly at this occasion, we would like to express our deep remorse and apology for the fact that invasion and colonial rule by our nation in the past brought to bear great sufferings and sorrow upon many people" (Speech at 127th National Diet Session).

And again on September 24, 1993. Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa. "I used the expression war of aggression and act of aggression to express honestly my recognition which is the same as the one that the act of our nation in the past brought to bear unbearable sufferings and sorrow upon many people, and to express once again deep remorse and apology" (128th National Diet Session).

Diet has never officially used the word apology in any resolution, but it finally issued a statement that expressed it's remorse in June 9, 1995. House of Representatives, National Diet of Japan. "On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse"

Unfortunately that is about all you will ever get from Diet. But it should be pointed out that when an Emperor says something, Japan views it as being said for *all* of Japan, and when the Prime Minister speaks, his words are the words of the government of Japan, or so they view it. When one of these top officials say I, all of Japan is saying I with them. And it is so hard for the Japanese people to say "sorry" or offer an apology in their culture that they say they are remorseful or filled with remorse.

Will we ever get a formal apology from Diet? I doubt it.
Does it matter? To some, yes. To others, no.

To give credit where due. That piece was assembled using numerous excerpts from the wikipedia page on Japan's apologies.

If there's any country that has the potential to unite the world under one government, it's the Japanese.

@fulhamish: it's good to have an opinion, but reality should come into the mix too. If you actually read what Southerners said about the Civil War, you would find that they overwhelmingly identified slavery as the cause of the war. In the years after the war, it became necessary for northern whites and southern whites to get along, so southern blacks were returned to an almost-slavery and white people agreed that slavery wasn't really the issue after all.

This is not really a debatable point if you actually spend time reading newspaper articles, sermons, and books from the 1850s. You can construct a counter-argument, but you can also construct a counter-argument to evolution...if you ignore enough data.

Thanks for that contribution. Always fun when you get to discuss an issue with wikipedia instead of human beings.

The Emperor can not speak for the Japanese government without approval of the Cabinet. This is clearly written in the Constitution. Any apologies the Emperor or Prime Minister make are done personally. The government of Japan is more than just the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister cannot independently and unilaterally make an apology on Japan's behalf. These personal apologies, such as they are, are jokes anyway. On the very same day Koizumi "apologized" in Indonesia in 2005, 80 Japanese lawmakers visited Yasukuni's 1068 war criminals and paid their respects, since they're enshrined as living gods.

Japan gets away with it because it is allowed to constantly hide behind "culture". It claims the constant visits to the 1068 war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni is a "national tradition". Of course this "national tradition" only began in the 1970s.

"Thanks for that contribution. Always fun when you get to discuss an issue with wikipedia instead of human beings."

Did those events listed in Wikipedia actually occur? If the answer is yes, aren't you being a little bit petty? Sure if it were some kind of controversial opinion-based entry in Wikipedia I could understand the skepticism, but I assume those quotes are check-able and uncontroversial. And if so, for our casual discussions surely Wikipedia is fine?

But maybe your point about those apologies not counting is true. What would an official apology look like?

Gosh! I have just been reading the Wikipedia entry on Japanese war crimes. Pretty gory stuff. Especially the Rape of Nanking.

Yeah, pretty nasty shit they did and yet the Japanese government never recognized them as war crimes. Putin is 100% right in that regard. The Japanese government will never admit it committed atrocities on the order of the Nazis, yet they did and worse.

@Putin

"we would like to express our deep remorse and apology for the fact that invasion and colonial rule by our nation in the past brought to bear great sufferings and sorrow upon many people" (Speech at 127th National Diet Session).

Sure sounds as official to me. Just as if our own President stood before Congress and made a similar type of speech.

Well that is shameful for the Japanese. They should apologize.

"And if so, for our casual discussions surely Wikipedia is fine?"

Who knows? Some of the "apologies" are written in Japanese, including the one Draugnar claims is "official enough for him". The whole wikipedia page on the issue sounds like a propaganda piece for the Japanese foreign ministry. It's completely one-sided and doesn't recognize the Chinese and Korean position on the issue.

"But maybe your point about those apologies not counting is true. What would an official apology look like?"

I already said what one would look like. A diet resolution expressing the view of the entire Japanese government. An official visit to the Chinese and Korean memorials and a showing of sincere remorse. *Recognition of unlawful or criminal activity*. *Apologies for particular acts, like the Rape of Nanjing*.

All the Japanese say are vagueries like "there have been many instances of colonialism and aggression in the past, and Japan is no exception. We are sorry for any hurt we might have caused".

And they follow it up with visits to honor their war criminals. It's completely disingenuous. Imagine a German official "apologizing" and then a German delegation promptly visiting an Eichmann shrine within the very day of the apology.

"Sure sounds as official to me. Just as if our own President stood before Congress and made a similar type of speech."

The Prime Minister doesn't speak for the government unilaterally. Japan is not a Presidential system. Japan's Diet has been insistent on this point, pointing out that any apology made by their Prime Minister is not a state-sanctioned one. Their own government admits it is not official. The PM cannot make any official statements without approval of the Cabinet. This is demonstrated by the fact that many PM "apologies" have been followed up by criticism from the Prime Minister's own cabinet - such as the famous Murayama 'apology' in 1995 (which was later rescinded by PM Shinzo Abe).

Point of order: Japan did not start World War II, so it would be strange if they apologized for it.

They're not being asked to apologize for all of WWII... they're being asked to apologize for some pretty brutal, sick shit they did during WWII.

Y'all should watch "Men behind the Sun" - a little movie about japanese biological war research camps they ran in china. I have a pretty strong stomach, but I almost fainted at one point! It's generally agreed to be the hardest movie to watch ever.

But anyway, I don't see any japs on this thread apoligizing, but if there are I will have a BJ as well please. Lovely.

Actually, should recommend that if you are under 25, don't watch it. It's not good for you. Watch something *badass* like se7en or natural born killers.

I'm wondering:

Is it a general principle that everyone who weren't even born in 1940's should apologize for what somebody vaguely related to them did back then, or is it just the Japanese?

Japanese this thread. For Germans, see earlier thread.