I really don't understand what free will has to do with volcanoes.

Putin <<Sounds like the human equivalent of scapegoating, described in Leviticus 16. Human sacrifice is abominable.>> In fact the blood sacrifices of animals were a preview of how our sins would be paid for by the willing death of Jesus on the cross.

@Putin - So your explanation as to why pre-teen and young teen girls are sold into sex slavery in Russia is wrong relies solely on the fact that it is considered wrong in our culture, but would be OK if we lived in a culture where children were property to be bought, sold, and used at an adults whim and pedophilia weren't a crime? Well in that case, I suppose the fact that the Jews were treated as vermin and killed by the Nazi's as such is OK, because Nazi culture said it was OK...

Culture's vary wildly across the globe, yet we all have certain commonalities, like murder being universally wrong. Where did this commonality come from? It existed long before mass communication and mass transit merge the "civilized world" into one big culture and appears in many holy texts from many different religions. So hwo did this just come about if there wasn't a god telling us in our souls that murder is wrong?

@Draugnar, murder is OK if you kill someone not of your tribe. Or if it's your daughter, and you promised to do it if you won the battle.

"Innocents (i.e. children) suffer because God grants free will."

Again I ask: Says who?

Putin <<Why must human life be taken to forgive humanity of sins? Doesn't automatic forgiveness of sins due to belief absolve people of moral accountability?>> Good hard questions. But I'll give it a try: Since God is absolutely pure, sin can't exist in his presence, just as dark can't exist in the presence of light. "The wages of sin is death." See the passover lamb as another preview of what Jesus would do for us. At the last supper, Jesus pointed out that the passover meal from then on would be to remember him--He is the lamb that was slain so that the angel of death would pass over. The hard thing to wrap our brains around is how such a loving God can be so insistent on justice, and vice-versa.

Putin <<Doesn't automatic forgiveness of sins due to belief absolve people of moral accountability?>> The opposite. Now that we have been bought and paid for, ransomed, we owe our lives to our rescuer, and that's our motivation for wanting to be like him in moral purity/accountability. But--we are still burdened with this sinful nature as long as we are on this earth, but slowly being transformed, not because we deserve it, but because we accept it as a free gift.

"Culture's vary wildly across the globe, yet we all have certain commonalities, like murder being universally wrong. Where did this commonality come from? It existed long before mass communication and mass transit merge the "civilized world" into one big culture and appears in many holy texts from many different religions. So hwo did this just come about if there wasn't a god telling us in our souls that murder is wrong? "
Ok Draugnar, I believe George Carlin had an interesting point on this, IT'S BECAUSE WE DON"T WANT TO GET MURDERED OURSELVES, IT'S COMMON F****** SENSE!!! lol RIP George

in other words, your logic is that, since i am too lazy to think of any reasonable answer, i will throw my hat down for god, and that is horribly abusive of logical thought process, certainly it makes sense in general to not kill people, and yet even though we think it's wrong (because we ourselves, among other reasons, don't want to BE MURDERED) we still do it on a person to person basis for different reasons. i absolutely abhor it when people say just because they have given no alternative solutions that god is the answer...

Free will has nothing to do with volcanos and evil has nothing to do with volcanos (or tornados or droughts or earthquakes or tsunamis or hurricanes or typhoons). That is just part of how the earth is continually reshaping herself. Remember, not all of Christianity (in fact only a minority) is fundamentalist and views Genesis as the literal truth (or Job or several other parts of the OT). We very much believe in evolution and a universe that is inconceivably old and realize the tales told in the creation story were to soothe mankind when mankind couldn't handle the immensity of the facts and needed to think he was at the center of the universe and everything revolved around him.

@manganese. It is telling that you cannot bring yourself to answer these two simple questions:
1) Do you believe in morally good acts?

2) Do you believe in morally evil acts?

Your only comment is that on the question of free-will they are a ''strawman''. I am afraid that to me the questions get to the heart of the matter. Furthermore, one cannot postulate that a debating partner has set up a strawman argument unless one has made any sort of argument in the first place. On the question of free will you have not done this at all, in my opinion.

Re the failings of the Catholic church, while I'm not Catholic, I recognize that all churches are just human institutions, subject to human failings, corruption, takeover by hostile powers. Also, just because someone says "I'm a Christian" doesn't make it so in God's eyes, so those who have accepted God's free gift can't be judged by the actions of all those who call themselves Christian. Plus which Christians are not by any means less subject to temptation and often give in, just slowly being transformed.

@Drag: still no reply.

"when mankind couldn't handle the immensity of the facts and needed to think he was at the center of the universe and everything revolved around him" As someone who is planning on an English major, the phrasing here disturbs me, you seem to think there is an omnipotent being who decides what is best for mankind...

@Ful: My question has been repeated. If you want to answer it, please do so.

@Anyone

Will no one answer my question? How can God "sacrifice" his "son"? What does this mean?

@fulhamish: in fact, ironically enough, it is not very revealing at all, as the questions are not pertinent to either your case or his. I believe morality to be relative, whereas you are saying there is Good (capital G) and Evil (capital E) from the way you have persisted on those two questions. While they do not subsist as strawmen arguments for the given topic, they're not going to further your inquisition of mr manganses regardless of his response... I think his decision is in fact a testament to his own free will... good sir

@otto The claim was that if I do not not believe in morally good and evil, I cannot believe in free will.

It really doesn't seem like a sacrifice if he goes straight up to heaven to sit un his daddy's lap, I've never understood that one... so many loopholes...

@ manganese... oh ok so it is indirectly pertinent, and i say indirectly because that assertion is totally ludicrous... they are working with a finite definition of free will then, from the God view point, which seems rather pseudo fatalist by the looks of it...

@Semck83 - you said: "as for Mohammed, my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) was that he had visions of Allah. So several differences jump out. First, these are visions, not physical experiences."

To my mind, this puts Mohammed in exactly the same position as Paul (whose ideas the church is really more about than anyone else's). I guess some claim is made that Jesus appeared to him in the flesh... but then Joseph Smith made a similar claim about the Angel Morani repeatedly visiting him (he described the clothes the Angel was wearing, etc.) - and Rev. Moon made such a claim about Jesus visiting him. As to the argument about the disciples - and their witnessings... I wonder how you feel about UFO sightings. Sometimes hundreds or thousands report a sighting (with remarkably similar description of an object or objects performing unlikely maneuvers, etc.) - does that make it really an alien spacecraft? Can thousands all be wrong?

@manganese - The reply has been given by several others. But I'll provide a couple Bible stories that answer your question.

First, read the Book of Job. Good allows Satan to crush Job by killing his entire family and torturing him nearly to the point of death so that Job might choose God despite the adversity. That alone is God's way of telling us he grants us free will and that evil exists to tempt us so we can exercise that free will.

Next, Lot and his family. They came upon two towns in which sin ran rampant. God tells Lot to leave the towns and not look back or he (or anyone in his family who does so) will be smote with the town. But Lot and his household have the choice. So Lot's wife chooses to look back and is smote, turned to a pillar of salt.

Finally, Jesus (God incarnate so he would experience all the temptations of man) was put to the test of free will in the wilderness so that he could pass and be the right and proper sacrificial lamb for our sins. While Christ was God, he was also Man as he oft referred to himself as "The Son of Man" and was even separated from God the Father for a time on the cross ("My God why haste thou forsaken me?") and forced to, yet again, suffer temptation: the temptation to take himself off the cross.

All of this clearly demonstrates we have free will. There are successes and failings of the faithful throughout the Bible, but it is always their choice. Judas' betrayal, Peter's denial, Thomas' doubts. All of these and more demonstrate that we have free will, but if there was no evil, no temptation, they (and we) could never have demonstrated and acted upon that free will.

@Draugnar, you stated: "Innocents (i.e. children) suffer because God grants free will."
If I also am a proponent of free will, does that mean I can sit by and let evil have its way? ...or does like, you know, God *own* things like evil and free will and thus he can dispense with these things as he sees fit (without having to follow the same rules). i.e. My question is this: Is Good absolute?... if so, then God is not Good (or there is no God). If not, then Good is apparently completely subject to God's will... and in that case God follows Nixon's rule... if God does it, it is Good. In the latter case, Good is about being loyal to God's commands - and has no deeper intrinsic meaning of its own. Logically speaking it's got to be one or the other.

@Draug: OK; so the answer to the question "Says who?" is "The Bible"?

@dexter - Thousands can be wrong about the source but have witnessed a very real phenomena. Case in point: the UFO sightings you mention. Area 51, the famous home of alien visitors, was in fact a test grounds for both the U2 and the Oxcart (the forerunner to the SR-71 Blackbird) and what is even more interesting is the Oxcart was silver and was known to damn near go vertical from horizontal flight, it was that maneuverable, giving it the potential to easily be thought a flying saucer. Oh, and anyhone who has seen a UFO is perfectly valid in claiming they have until the object is identified. That's what it stands for: U)nidentified F)lying O)bject.

@ Manganese and Dexter

We are still not clear on whether either of you believe in free will. Do good and evil exist and is there a corresponding choice to be made?

God: Good cop
Satan: Bad cop
(God sometimes both Good cop and Bad cop)

@ Dexter. Is that a yes or a no? You will notice that I do not include any reference to God in the question.

@Mang - Yes, the writers of the Bible, who were presumably inspired by God, hence the Bible being the Word of God. And no, I don't believe Job was a real man. It is another tale, like Jonah, to teach and guide us. Hell, Eve had free will when she took the forbidden fruit and ate of it, and Adam, who was right next to her and clearly knew which tree it was from, had free will and chose to disobey and eat of the fruit. Again, a tale told to explain our origins to early man, but still the first true act of free will disobedience mentioned in the Bible. This is followed shortly on by Cain slaying Abel, yet another act of free will.

But if you don't believe in God, then none of that will influence you and we have nothing further to discuss on the matter.

@dexter - Sure you can sit by and do nothing. People do it all the time. Hell, governments do it all the time. How many people witness an assault or murder and don't want to get involved? It happens daily.