I don´t know why you are avoiding my arguments!
Instead you are again coming up with :

"- i mean by Amnesty International's standards Spain should not be allowed into the EU"

And finally:

"And as i've pointed out there are many people whose views and political movements I do not agree with or support within Europe, but we live in a tolerant society."

And Turkey is not, exactly in this case! It´s not tolerant with critics, so if you don´t get it now...i don´t know

Sorry that´s ridiculuos, Amnesty International never said that, and you are pulling this out of your a.. :-)

@ orathaic
I don´t know why you are avoiding my arguments!
Instead you are again coming up with :
"- i mean by Amnesty International's standards Spain should not be allowed into the EU"
Sorry that´s ridiculuos, Amnesty International never said that, and you are pulling this out of your a.. :-) And finally:
"And as i've pointed out there are many people whose views and political movements I do not agree with or support within Europe, but we live in a tolerant society."
And Turkey is not, exactly in this case! It´s not tolerant with critics, so if you don´t get it now...i don´t know.

I'm not saying Amnesty international ever said Spain shouldn't be in the EU, because obviously they didn't.

You are the one who used Amnesty Inernational as the criteria for judging Turkey. I'm claiming that if you used the same criteria for judging Spain you would come to the conclusion that they shouldn't be allowed join.

- Yes, the Militrary is a problem, and is a left over from Kemal's regime but that doesn't mean it was part of his ideal. It was, i think, a required practice to implement his ideal. A compromise of ideals which has had negative consequences.

look at both the transition from military rule in Spain and Greece. Neither of these were disqualified from joining the Union.

Perhaps the only question is how to best bring Turkey into closer alignment with European countries on certain economic issues and societal norms - but i think the aim should be to push these forward rather than continue the protracted campaign to deny them entry to the Union (as they first applied in 1987)

I don´t use Amnesty International as a criteria for joining the EU. Amnesty international has nothing to do with that, why are youz telling this?
Amnesty International reports violations of human rigths, and Turkey violates them in a way no country of the EU does! These are just facts orathaic, you can´t ignore them the way you do if your are really interestet in this thread.

What are you talking about Spain and Greece? They have no and had no problems with the military influence when they joined the European Union. Sorry you made that up :-)

i'm not just making stuff up: http://www.euronews.net/2006/01/07/spanish-army-chief-warns-against-catalan-autonomy/

When an American Army chief complains about government policy he is fired. When a Spanish one threatens a coup if certain laws are pass you they keep their job?

Turkeys violates human rights, and so do many EU member state governments. You can't just ignore what is going on in the rest of Europe, freedom of expression in France is curtailed when the burqa is banned.

Amnesty international doesn't pick and choose who to complain about, they report all violations of human rights. You're just seeking to use this information and ignore the violations you don't mind.

and oh yeah, the way EU countries violate humans rights is in no way the same as Turkey. The EU countries have their own special way of curtailing rights where possible.

"if you believe Turkey has no human right problem because of signing a contract. Look up Amenesty Internationals hompage" - you specifically claimed the Turkey has a human rights problem and that this was what should disqualify them from EU membership.

I specifically called you on this claim by looking up amnesty international's homepage as you suggested and pointing to all the abuses by the EU members.

I don't see how that is so hard for you to understand, i'm just using the criteria YOU pointed me to.

As I understand it the EU has some concerns over Human Rights in Turkey which, with the Cyprus problem, are the main reason that membership process has not yet started. Sort those out and a timetable can be set. Sounds fair enough to me.

@oratanic

"you specifically claimed the Turkey has a human rights problem and that this was what should disqualify them from EU membership."

That´s absolutly correct, it´s me who claimed it, not Amnesty International.

"freedom of expression in France is curtailed when the burqa is banned. "

Banning the Burqa is a problem for you? If it´s that way i think you don´t understand the reason why its banned. In Germany its forbidden to wear Nazi symbols on clothes, and everybody aggrees on that. Of course its against freedom of expression, but it sometimes stands against another freedom. The same is with the Burqua, the freedom to wear what you want stands against ending suppression and against sexual equality.
That´s the reason why they banned it orathaic, now please don´t come again with some quotes and decisions you don´t understand!

The world is not white or black, and especially at the Turkey issue. It is a fact that
Turkey is far away from beeing a modern state, respecting human rigths and acepting peaceful solutions for Cyprus

So the ban on opposing the secular freedoms setup by Kemal and opposing the introduction of Islamic law is totally different? I'm glad you dopn't see any comparison.

In responce to your last point, no the world is not black or white, can i refer you back to my first post in this topic (page 2): "I don't have time (or the ability) to provide a concise and detailed analysis, but overall i think we have enough in common with Turkey, and the goals of the EU are favourable to their joining."

Peaceful solutions for cyprus? What about the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland (which was only given up in 1998 well after both countries joined the EU) or the Spainish claim on Gibralta?

If it comes down to property rights, the Poles were kicking up a fuss about German actions during world war 2. Maybe we should sort out all minor national border quibbles before we make any political progress?

Again i don´t like polemic answers, cause they are allways wrong. And if you claim
that you "don't have time (or the ability) to provide a concise and detailed analysis"
so don´t try it!

Irish claim on on Northern Ireland? Did they send troops to Northern Ireland? No so what? Is this to complicated for you to see the difference between Cyprus and that?
Spanish claim on Gibraltar, see above...

"Maybe we should sort out all minor national border quibbles before we make any political progress?"
Minor national border quibbles? That is invading another country and still holding the territory for you?

I suppose you know of no European country which has ever invaded a country and still hold the territory - which is currently in the EU?

Maybe you have heard of the principle of "self-determination of peoples" does that give the Turkish cypriots the right to refuse to join Greece?

I know this gets a lot of press because as a current EU memeber Greece has the right to veto any Turkish attempt to join the EU.

Well let's see, since you complained about me quoting wikipedia, this is from the cia factbook:

"a separation of the two ethnic communities inhabiting the island began following the outbreak of communal strife in 1963; this separation was further solidified after the Turkish intervention in July 1974 that followed a Greek military-junta-supported coup attempt gave the Turkish Cypriots de facto control in the north; Greek Cypriots control the only internationally recognized government; on 15 November 1983 Turkish Cypriot "President" Rauf DENKTASH declared independence and the formation of a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" ("TRNC"), which is recognized only by Turkey"

Sounds like two sovereign nations interfered with a local issue and each now has a defacto independent state.

Does that sound like any other peaceful occupation we know about?

in fact the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee, signed for Greece by C. CHRISTOPOULOS states: "Greece, Turkey, and the United Kingdom...recognise and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity, and security of the Republic of Cyprus,"

Turkey claims it's military action was to prevent the Greek coup from destroying the independence of the Republic of Cyprus, meanwhile it did in fact destroy the territorial integrity... pity about that one.

"which is recognized only by Turkey"

It´s still invaded and under control of the turkish army. There is no Republic of Northern Cyprus! It´s hilarious who you just don´t want to accept the facts...

who=how

"Sounds like two sovereign nations interfered with a local issue and each now has a defacto independent state."

Didn´t you read the quote at all? The quote says after signing a contrcat for Cyprus´independence, the Turks give a damn about it and invaded Cyprus!

Sorry it makes no sense to discuss this issue with you. You have no clue about history, the present Turkey and the EU on that issue.
You made every arguement up and i showed you why. Now you are coming up with arguments and quotes you didn´t ready at all and stand against your conclusions.

@Miro

Have you ever been to Turkey? Do you know any Turks? How about reading something yourself before lecturing others. Did you know it was the Greece who actually initiated the Cyprus problem - there was a change of regime just before that in GRE, which affected also Cyprus, and the Greek political majority decided to make a move for a union between the two states - regardless of the resistance of the Turkish minority. This is why TUR invaded.

Btw, looking at your posts I think the only conclusion that can be made is that you're a stupid racist moron who simply hates Turkey for something that happened centuries ago. Any chance you're from Serbia or Croatia? :)

Turkey can join the EU right after Armenia does--and only then if Turkey admits to committing the Armenian genocide.

Where is the consistency in that condition?

I make no judgement either way on the Armenian question here but do ask how you can hold a specific standard to one country unless you hold an equivalent standard to all others?

Also, can anyone confirm the much earlier assertion that the fundamental reason for the idea of European Union was to make war 'impossible' between member states.

I am hoping one of you can give a specific link/reference for this back in the days of the EEC or even the European Coal and Steel Union.

Thanks.

Finally, do we have an accepted definition of what constitutes Europe?

Earlier we were told about the Greek idea that had Europe as 'the lands surrounding the sea' - which would make everywhere from Morocco round to Spain European, and in particular, both Israel and Turkey in the modern world, as well as the Lebanon and Gaza Strip...

The reference to Israel being in both the Champions League and Eurovision Song Contest was a classic.

Thanks again for the discussions and contributions.

@ivo

"Btw, looking at your posts I think the only conclusion that can be made is that you're a stupid racist moron who simply hates Turkey for something that happened centuries ago. Any chance you're from Serbia or Croatia? :) "

Ehm no i´m not? Your question makes you sound like a stupid racist moron...
Turkey invaded Cyprus because of inner affairs, the broke up with the contract of indepence, you are turning facts the way they make no sense. I recognize your hostile behavior to everyone who´s smarter then you, i will ignore you for your defamation.

Ivo is Indian so he said earlier, not croat or serb

i know i didn´t ask him, he asked me. it´s a qote sherlock :-)

Hey Miro- or what ur name really is- you remind me of another person who used to on this site that i have been told about.... and since u only joined on Monday, u have posted incessantly- please tell us ur old name?????

I am curious

Anyone else think that Miro is a name for an old player who left perhaps?

:)

and QUOTE is spelled like that, not QOTE

Maybe it´s hard to believe for you but my real name is not Miro Klose! Really it isn´t!
I know how quote is spelled, but people like you are getting a boner of having an "spelling argument" in a discussion. So just enjoy your only moment of excitement :-)

I meant that u may have a- been banned and are back under another username or something- it seems u are trolling the forum and all the separate posts and disagreeing with everyone even when your own argument is clearly flawed... i wonder is all

or b- decided a fresh start was in order? but didn't change tactics?