Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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tboin4 (100 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Swapping land
In a game. If I own both say Galicia and Warsaw, could I do warsaw-galicia and galicia-warsaw?
7 replies
Open
SrgtSilver64 (335 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Request unpause please
Im not saying unpause just yet but can a mod look into game id http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8084 and just unpause it if Russia doesnt come back in a few days. Thanks.
0 replies
Open
Spell of Wheels (4896 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Could a Moderator unpause this game
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8220

This game was paused since Bunny was banned. Everyone except France has agreed to resume and he was NMR in the spring.
0 replies
Open
wideyedwanderer (706 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Needed
Player to take over a CD France. Good position. Game is almost over. France and I were allies, and were about to force a stalemate.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7793&msgCountry=Global
5 replies
Open
figlesquidge (2131 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Old Guard
The games coming up saying "newbies only" etc lead me to do this. Next friday I'd like to start a couple of new games, and I was wondering:
Can I find 7 people with 3-digit ID's? How many of us are left?
3 replies
Open
andersred (152 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Question re winning points
Can someone explain how I have got to 106 points please?
4 replies
Open
amonkeyperson (100 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Why?
What were the reasons Tarablus got banned?
19 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
30 Dec 08 UTC
Palestinians, Israel, the US, England, and the World- The Crisis
This thread is to discuss the current situation on the Gaza Strip, who you think is right and wrong, if you think there is a right or wrong, and what you predict the world will do and what you think the world should do

Try to be somewhat respectful, even if it's hard; I know it's a hot issue for some (me included) but do try and stay somewhat civil.
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Are there any targets in Gaza that are considered military??
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Happy New Year, folks (as long as you don't live in the regions in question, that is)

Kompole, I started this to see what others thought, and to express my thoughts. Yes, I do back Israel 100%, and I will defend her here, but I not only like to hear what others think, I also think it is good- if you have a reason that you believe Israel is in the wrong, I'd like to hear your opinion, and in turn I'd like to share my opinion. I've changed "100%" opinions before in part at least.......

I like these discussions- as long as they stay in the green or at least yellow, not the red, if you know what I mean-

For instance, I remember I had a High School Class a few years back, a college-level course with really intelligent kids. And that class became the United Nations from Hell- me, right behind me a guy who was anti-war for America, next to him, a guy who was entering the Army no less, and then next to me, a Sufi Muslim who was 110% for Iran, the nuclear erradication of Israel and all Jews, was pro-Holocaust..... and then we had the Latino and African-American occaisonal clashes, and then our Asians almost always refused to talk to ANYONE if they were not Asian too.

Yeah. The teacher, he was a guy who liked a healthy debate, but it always came back to one of those parties clashing with their obvious opposite- most notably the Muslim and me.

Actually that's how I got INTRODUCED to Diplomacy. We had a class game for teaching WWI, and so we all factionized along the expected lines, and I led a couple of my quiet-but-super-smart friends as England- so of course the Muslim kid (name was "Khaled," he got freaked out when I finally got tired of him putting down Jews and pronounced his name the correct way- sounding the "h" like a hard, Hebrew/Arabic "ch" sound, the rest of the class had always just pronounced the K) just HAD to be France.

It was great- I flew out in front, took the Scands and Belgium, part of Russia, then crushed his France and took everything-

But Gaza- I mean, Portugal.

And there I was, 14 centers or so, a superpower (the anti-war kid was Turkey, also at 14 kidn of ironic he'd fly out in front, but he was one of those RTS guys, just hated real war, I guess.)

But no one enjoyed the game at all, because the thing seemed REAL. There were so many bitter factions, Zionist, Sufi, anti-war, pro-war, Asian superiorists, Asian pacifists, African Americans, Latinos- EVERYONE had bickered all year, and so the game became a sort of proving ground- each move became like a real, political statement.

So you can imagina how, after hearing "Jewish-pizza-oven" jokes all year how elated I was to have crushed the Muslim kid so effectively, sent three fleets in to take out Portugal-

And it was saved.

Italy, damn ITALY, had cut support at Spain and sent fleets. The leader of Italy- the ultimate pacifist in the class, a girl who was a student council member, straight A's, popular-
Ms. Perfect and likeable (and I guess that's a great persona for Italy, make your neighbors like you, it sure worked here.)

She demanded a 7-way peace at the start of the game- no, I said. The Latinos as Austria were crushed by my manipulating Asian Russia and through the efforts of anti-war Turkey.

Same offer- no.

Germany's head was a maverick, a cutthroat who was in it for herself (winners got a LOT of EC as I recall, like enough to turn a fail to a pass, and she wanted an A+, another preppy), and she and I worked together to take out Asian Russia.

Italy comes up, same offer- no. Italy was pissed she just wanted it all to end, but I had her far outgunned, and I was determined to not ony go for the win (I was always a top-2 power, me and Turkey were neck-and-neck), but teach that Muslim kid a lesson.

So France fell FAST, and I even let a couple of Russian lands go to Turkey to keep him from fighting me at the moment- I was still growing in power with the conquest of the Muslim kid's France.

So I attacked Portugal, and, in all honesty I HAD had enough, heard enough anger in that room, and I had no other grudges- I strongly felt that unless something huge happened that turn, like if I grew to 16 or so, then after the Muslim kid fell, I'd take that draw, take the credibility,split the EC with the other groups, and end the war.

But ITALY! She insisted the Muslim kid get his share too that we all be "in peace."

My response I can remember to this day, word for word, "If you really want peace, you'll let me crush this Anti-Semite, and only then will I draw."

FOUR turns, two full years, I hit Gaza- I mean, Portugal- but damn "France" held out with one fleet there and Italy's huge help.

And in the meantime, this had given the maverick Germany and anti-war Turkey the perfect opening to attack my eastern flank. Kicked out o fRussia, lost the Scands, lost HOLLAND- and I saw it all and could have blocked it, but didn't care whether I drew the game with a huge empire or two fleets- just as long and France DIED, so long as I made that kid pay........

In the end, we were deadlocked; I was the best tactician in the room, and so even with EVRYONE against me with their forces and me outnumbered 4-1, I still kept my English empire afloat and still attacking Portugal while defending my homeland.

After nearly three weeks all told, the teacher had enough. It was by this point 1917 (yes, I held out THAT long against everyone, dragged it out THAT long) before "America," the teacher, entered the game, and took complete control of all the other nations. He was a veteran of chess and Diplomacy, and this was my first game, and I had six centers left-

I drew, with them never having gotten into Israel- sorry, England- and yet having never taken out Hamas in Gaza- sorry, the French fleet in Portugal.


You may see it silly, but THAT'S what this real-world war is- that game. Israel doesn't want to lose face, just wants to crush the taunting Hamas. Hamas in a straight fight would lose easily, but with aid and a defensible postion, creates a nightmare for all.

And yet, if ONE of those other powers- Italy, Germany, anyone- had aided me or made me an offer to take care of my anger, an alliance (I had some non-agression and touch and go alliances, but it was mostly a solo I was playing, just me, the quiet kids in my group too scared to make a wrong move and screw up my strategy), something to end my fear and anger of France by giving me real help, that Captain Ahab situation I- and Israel in real life- faced would have ended on a much better, less drawn-out way. By the end of that game, aside from the fact I loved Diplomacy as a game, I was miserable- an AP teenage HS student miserable over pieces on a board, only they seemed to me like much more- and I wasn't the only one. A couple friendships were REALLY strained during/after that game, and I saw at least one couple break up after Austria fell (a Latino screaming "How could you do that to me?" while the Asian Russia just walked away with a sneer and a taunt, at his GIRLFRIEND.)


My point is this- that game seemed like real war for us, and it was wonderful and terrible at the same time.

This war in Gaza is just TERRIBLE, and needs to end- and unless someone wants to step in and help, the only alternative I would back at this point is Israel doing what it can to end it for her people. (I know a LOT of nice Muslims, that scumbag kid was a radical and a fluke I know, but, given the choice of whether I'd want Israel or Palestine to go, I have to back my people, and if that's bigoted, sorry, but I hope you'll understand)
Marchosias (115 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
"I'm afraid I feel compelled to correct you. All three contain passages which can be, and have been, construed to incite violence towards followers of the others."

Major... show me one passage in the Bible that says "Thou shalt kill infidels wheresoever you find them," or anything to that effect. Just one passage. Check Deuteronomy 20:10-17. You'll note that its an incredibly violent, genocidal passage. But you'll also note that verse 17 states:

"But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee"

This is very typical of Biblical violence, and is the prime reason that Christians and Jews don't treat these genocidal commands as modern-day imperatives- they're always directed at Ancient People A, who (usually) no longer exist. They always have a historical context- its not a permanent command to make war perpetually.

The Quran, on the other hand, doesn't have these historical boundaries. They're very open-ended.

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

And whoever wants to challenge me on this- and I know there's someone who will (there's always a sucker)- before you try any of your politically correct BS... Find me something, anything, in the text of Chapter 8 of the Quran, Al-Anfal, that directs the violence of 8:12 at a historical Ancient People A, instead of "those who disbelieve", then as well as now. If you fail to address this question, you fail, and your argument is fairly null and void.

... But I don't really expect anything other than a BS politically correct argument calling me a racist and a bigot, etc etc... Because there is no historical context in Chapter 8 of the Quran. None. This is the root of the problem.

Israel is responding to attacks on its citizens, and well it should, for any group in history that failed to defend itself became an easy target. Hamas and the other extreme groups like it are very much akin to the Nazis in their blind hatred.
And you're outta here...

Everybody knows that you lose all right to be taken seriously in a forum when you compare anyone directly to the Nazis.
Marchosias (115 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
There goes the BS politically correct argument.

Its a legitimate comparison, because I'm comparing their blind hatred of the Jews.

If you can't respond intellectually, don't respond.
I would add that to suggest that there are no Christians who take the old testament fire and brimstone to be as relevant today as ever, no Jews who hold the scriptures as the absolute word of God, and that all Muslims hold that particular passage to be taken literally, is quite crass.

Moderate Islam can be found all around the globe, in the same way as moderate Christianity is distinguishable from fundamentalism.

And finally a word on political correctness. I get sick to the back teeth of people harping on about political correctness gone mad.

We are just over twenty years on from a Conservative election campaign in Birmingham, based around the "want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour" argument. The change in British society which seen racism and homophobia become socially unacceptable IS political correctness.

To criticise political correctness, which can be defined as the non-acceptance of racism, homophobia and other forms of bigotry is hard to justify.

While there are still Christians killing, assaulting and intimidating DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS in the US, and Israel continues an aggressive, reactionary foreign policy, the implication of the three faiths in violence across the world will remain.

100 dead Palestinians for each of the 4 Israelis killed during the present conflict is a pretty old testament ratio, would you not agree?

Following on from the invasion of Lebanon, and as an extension of the oppression of the Palestinian people which has continued for over a decade, this latest aggression appears to be more about political posturing prior to an election, and reasserting the threat of an armed forces fought to a standstill in Lebanon.

Oh, and one more thing, the link between terrorism and religion is in itself highly suspect. When an ex-CIA chap investigated 315/345 incidneces of suicide bombing, the motive was found to generally be political as opposed to religious. Occupation of contested territory being the number 1 cause.
Marchosias (115 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
"I would add that to suggest that there are no Christians who take the old testament fire and brimstone to be as relevant today as ever, no Jews who hold the scriptures as the absolute word of God, and that all Muslims hold that particular passage to be taken literally, is quite crass."

The Old Testament "fire and brimstone", while directed at converting others to the religion, is not a violent means of conversion, and therefore that point is invalid. I never said anything about how many Muslims take that passage literally, either, so that point is also invalid. The point I'm making is that the Muslims who WANT to take that point literally, DO.

You are correct that moderate Islam can be found everywhere. I have no problem with peaceful practitioners of the religion. You'll note my venom is directed towards groups like Hamas, not all Muslims by any stretch of the imagination.

We certainly have different takes on political correctness, Major, as you're apparently British. I'm American, and being PC has become so crazily rampant... I'm all in favor of not being insulting to other types of human beings, but when those types get special treatment over other types, I have an issue with it.

Yeah, there are a handful of crazy Christians who, on occasion, do violent things in the US. But that absolutely pales in comparison to the every day violence of groups like Hamas. They launched 300 rockets at Israel in the week leading up to Israel's counter attack. You won't find 300 attacks on doctors/scientists in the US by Christians in the entire history of the country.

"100 dead Palestinians for each of the 4 Israelis killed during the present conflict is a pretty old testament ratio, would you not agree?"

Show me the ratio of Hamas deaths to civilian deaths, then we can talk about that.

Oppression of the Palestinian people? Palestinians who are willing to live peacefully have a political voice inside Israel, and enjoy all rights to living in Israel as any other citizen. When did Israel's government force all of its citizens to leave their Gaza homes?

"this latest aggression appears to be more about political posturing prior to an election"

Aggression? Are you kidding me? Change the tint on your glasses, Brit. The color is showing through to the other side.

"the link between terrorism and religion is in itself highly suspect"

Really? How many other religions sport suicide bombers as part and parcel of the religion?
Marchosias (115 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
I'm sorry, I should clarify this part a bit:

(("this latest aggression appears to be more about political posturing prior to an election"

Aggression? Are you kidding me? Change the tint on your glasses, Brit. The color is showing through to the other side. ))

Because it really lacked any intelligent response, and I apologize. It just shocked me to hear it.

If responding to attacks is Aggression, and not a Defensive counter attack... Seriously. Every people is entitled to self defense.
I'd be surprised if anyone can tell you the ratio of Hamas to civilian deaths. It's hard enough to separate the bodies of the women from the children.

When you make your comment about the tint of my glasses, what do you actually mean? Your point is as opaque as your rhetoric is transparent.

You have failed to perceive the point about suicide bombings. The reason why suicide bombings take place is when a people have no recourse to self-determination through electoral process or conventional warfare.

Majority Muslim nations have produced the majority of suicide bombers because it is the Christian and Jewish nations which have the big fuck off armies and the nukes.

Take all the armed conflicts in the world over the past fifty years and I think you'll find that the vast majority have been instigated by the US and their dangerous interventionist foreign policy.

You are not equipped to take part in this debate, stunningly subjective, and i'd put money on you being against gay marriage and abortion, revealing your true colours as an anti-humanitarian.
Marchosias (115 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
The reason why its hard to separate Hamas and civilian deaths is because they love staying near civilians. Every civilian death killed while destroying Hamas is a political victory for them.

-My- rhetoric is transparent? Have a look in the mirror xD

"You have failed to perceive the point about suicide bombings. The reason why suicide bombings take place is when a people have no recourse to self-determination through electoral process or conventional warfare."

Really? What do you call 9/11? Not one person killed in the 9/11 attacks were oppressing any of the hijackers or any of the hijackers' countrymen.

"Majority Muslim nations have produced the majority of suicide bombers because it is the Christian and Jewish nations which have the big fuck off armies and the nukes."

So we should completely disarm and let them have their way with us?

"Take all the armed conflicts in the world over the past fifty years and I think you'll find that the vast majority have been instigated by the US and their dangerous interventionist foreign policy."

Not part of the debate. Might be true, but as I've taken part in a handful of these, my view is on the inside and I can't comment on them.

"You are not equipped to take part in this debate, stunningly subjective, and i'd put money on you being against gay marriage and abortion, revealing your true colours as an anti-humanitarian."

Thats how tinted your glasses are, Major. I'm quite well equipped to handle your debate. I'm with Thomas Jefferson when I say,

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God."

I'm really the most humanitarian. I'm for complete human freedom. Love who you want, do what you want with your own body, worship how you want to. None of that does me any harm.

But when something you do causes me harm, I will come down on your head like a sledgehammer, and THAT is why I condemn the extremist Muslim groups.

"It is our duty still to endeavor to avoid war; but if it shall actually take place, no matter by whom brought on, we must defend ourselves. If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it."
-Thomas Jefferson
"But when something you do causes me harm, I will come down on your head like a sledgehammer, and THAT is why I condemn the extremist Muslim groups."

Would that be condemning them for coming down like a sledgehammer on people who do them harm?

You go through my post and offer your knee jerk reactions, without really considering what i've written.

If you want to talk about bombing campigns, perhaps you should consider that I live in a country which was subjected to US sponsored bombings by the IRA.

We now have a lasting peace due to reconciliation and forgiveness, as the sensible strategic response to a threat which cannot be destroyed through armed might.

If you truly propose that Israel should keep killing Palestinians until none of them will pick up arms, then you are in effect proposing genocide, as each woman or child that dies inspires further support to their cause.

This will be my final post on this thread, as I hope that ceasing to confront you may give you pause for thought when it comes to respecting other peoples opinions.

What I hope you can understand is that to say that the Israeli assault on Gaza is a response to the missile attacks, leaves the question of what motivated the missile attacks completely unanswered.

The unpicking of this situation, and the establishment of a lasting peace, can only be worsened through the disproportionate nature of this latest link in the chain of injustices each side has wrought upon the other.

The voices of the world are beng lifted to the heavens, and implore the nation of Israel to restrain it's anger. That you sit, so far from the realities of the conflict, with nothing more to offer than "They had it coming to 'em" is frankly baffling.

I trust that you will understand my exit from this 'discussion' (I have an appointment at the grown ups table) and I wish you a happy new year.

Maybe you should check out the Free Book on offer in the forum, it may open your eyes to a different perception of things. A bit less 'eye for an eye'.
Marchosias (115 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Knee jerk reactions? Without considering what you've written? How does refuting every other point you posit.... nevermind. Won't matter what I write, you already believe you are correct, and beliefs cannot ever be countered by truths.

"Would that be condemning them for coming down like a sledgehammer on people who do them harm?"

No, they started on us first. Look up the Barbary Corsairs.

"If you want to talk about bombing campigns, perhaps you should consider that I live in a country which was subjected to US sponsored bombings by the IRA."

The US as a country didn't sponsor it; individual citizens did. Just like individual US citizens are funding Hamas and other organizations. Please do get your facts correct.

"We now have a lasting peace due to reconciliation and forgiveness" ... The IRA wanted Ireland to be its own country. Hamas, al-Qaeda and other groups like them don't want anything so simple. They want to kill all heathens. Its hard to negotiate around those demands.

"If you truly propose that Israel should keep killing Palestinians until none of them will pick up arms, then you are in effect proposing genocide, as each woman or child that dies inspires further support to their cause."

I'm not proposing anything of the sort. I'm affirming Israel's right to defend itself when attacked. You keep ignoring the thousands of unprovoked attacks that Palestinians have directed at Israel since Israel vacated Gaza in an effort to secure peace with the Palestinians.

"This will be my final post on this thread, as I hope that ceasing to confront you may give you pause for thought when it comes to respecting other peoples opinions."

I fully respect your right to your opinion. I have just as equal a right to deride it as folly.

"What I hope you can understand is that to say that the Israeli assault on Gaza is a response to the missile attacks, leaves the question of what motivated the missile attacks completely unanswered."

Yes, you tell me what motivated the rocket attacks. Israel gave in to Palestinian demands and vacated Gaza.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/12/world/main833999.shtml

And since that day in 2005, Palestinians have launched over 3,000 rockets onto Israeli soil. Indeed, you tell me what provoked those rocket attacks- Israel gave the Palestinians what they demanded- Gaza. But its not enough, they still want more.

How are you baffled by my attitude that they had it coming? I'm not so far removed from the "realities" of the conflict; you seem to have already forgotten I've mentioned my military service. If anyone were to shoot at my house, I'd fucking kill them. I don't care if they killed anyone in my house or not, I will not tolerate a threat to the security of me and mine, and that is the premise that the Israelis are operating on. I've never advocated an eye for an eye. All moral behavior derives from the instinct for survival.

Hamas and other groups are making demands for land and other wants; Israel desires survival and peace. They make a peace deal with the militants (like vacating Gaza) and all they get for it is a period of time with lessened violence, but they are constantly under attack. If you can't see that, nothing can help you.

Yes, leave the discussion with your high-and-mighty personal insults to the "grownups" table. I'll leave the irony of that one alone.
Archonix (246 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
@Marchosias

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

Isn't this kinda funny? I'd interpret that passage as demanding that all Christians/Jews execute all of us that don't follow their god.
Savlian (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
My slant = American Jew
ISRAEL AND PALESTINE
Israel would be quite content to leave Gaza and the West Bank alone. The problem is, Hamas. The Israeli and U.S. government should give monetary aid to the Palestinian regions to build up a stronger government and crack down on anti-Israeli fanatics/outlaws in their borders.
Denzel73 (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Marchosias:
Compare this to present situation in Gaza, ant tell me what you make of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto
Oh please don't compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. The Jews of Poland were not armed, they were more than content to live under the laws of Poland.

The Palestinians of Gaza did NOT want to live under Israeli rule, and when they were under Egyptian rule, they did not want to live next door to Israel either. Between 48 and 67, when Egypt ruled Gaza, there were thousands of infiltrations by Palestinians into Israel. The comparison between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto shows you have very little concept of history or the present situation.

While you can try to compare the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising to what is going on now in Gaza, how those situations came about entirely negates any comparison you want to make.
RJJohnson (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Agreed with Dingle J on the Warsaw ghetto.
Denzel73, you are one heck of an Anti Semite.
Your comments are disgusting racism.
HAMAS (may they be destroyed) are the problem.
I am not a anti-arab but a terrorist hater. Is that wrong, to hate murderers?
RJJohnson (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Oh,
May Hamas be wiped from the face of the earth.
May every terrorist of theirs die and roast in hell.
about them, not using the F-word is moderation.
Denzel73 (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Most of the Jews in Ghetto were not armed, but those who fought, were, obviously.
Gaza is under blockade for years now, and there is famine there, not as strong as in '43, but that would really be a shame for the World in 2008 if that was so.
Now, the city is systematically being reduced to ruins.
Latest news said that one of the Leaders of Hamas was killed in an airstrike on his home, along with his wife and his 8 children. Reminds me of the bombing of Tripoli in 1980-ies, when Gadafi was personally targeted by USAF F-111.
I'm waiting for one of your right-wingers to explain to me how that is not a murder.
Or does that make Tzipi Livni and her family a legitimate target for any Hamas militant?

It really doesn't matter how this came to be in Gaza or Warsaw, when how this might end, is quite similar. A genocide, if not stopped.

And for my concept of history, well, it is always written by winners. Lets wait for 50 years, and see what China and Pan-Islam will have to say about today's policies of UN, US and Israel....
RJJohnson (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Oh, Denzel73, while you are praising cold-blooded murderers,
you might as well start a Sicilian Mafia fan group.
RJJohnson (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
Genocide!
how dare you compare to the Holocaust and mock the systematic murders of half of my family!
Denzel73 (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
RJ, I'm not Anti Semite :) I admire IDF and their efficiency, and I think Israel has a right and capability to exist. All I'm saying is that one-sided makes views make people blind to the fact that the truth is somewhere in the middle, and I'm here to provide other side's views, being neutral.
Denzel73 (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
RJ. I am from Croatia, ex-Yugoslavia. Germans killed 4 members of my family, and other 3 were fighting them as Tito's partisans. Yugoslavia had over 1.500.000 casualties in WWII. The Germans called Partisans "Bandits" and "Terrorists". We called them "Liberators" and "Freedom Fighters".

Now try to figure that from the viewpoint of someone living in Gaza right now?
Denzel73 (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
RJ, please quote me, where was I praising Hamas?
I don't find Denzel's views anti-Semitic at all. People are too quick to label any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. I believe they are incredibly naive, and that Denzel's worldview is full of flowers and puppy dogs, but they are not anti-semitic. (Contrast his posts with the first few in this thread by Daniel-san if you want to see anti-semitism.)

It certainly DOES matter how the situation was created. Israel accepted the 48 partition, the Palestinians did not fought Israel conventionally until the armistace, and through terrorism for another 19 years until Israel came into possession of Gaza. As Henry Kissinger once said 'they never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity'. (Great line, whether you agree with it or not).

And the leaders of Israel have always been considered as targets. In 2001, the minister of tourism as assassinated by a Palestinian terrorist.

And I understand the viewpoint of someone living in Gaza right now. I also understand the viewpoint of an Israeli leader tasked with trying to protect its citizens.

So the question I ask, which I asked before and got no response.

If Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, allowed the Palestinians to control the border as any other country gets to, if it withdrew from EVERY INCH of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and dismantled all settlements, do you think that would bring peace?
Denzel73 (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
No, it wouldn't. Too late for that.
I think Israel as the country has to be prepared for perpetual warfare. Something that should have been thought about 100 years ago, but now, there it is.

As for the assassinations of Israeli politicians, Palestinians are not the only ones who perform them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin

As for the roots of terrorist bombings in Holy Land:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

I repeat, I'm not Anti-Jewish, I merely want to point out that every coin has two sides.
So if there is war no matter what the Israelis do, what is the right course of action for them?
If there is a 'country' that will war with you regardless...
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
If war is forced upon you no matter what you do, then I believe that there is only one real option...............

It's an Old West Showdown, Hamas or Israel, that land isn't big enough for the both of them, so someone's going to have to "leave town or go down."

And in a Hamas vs. Israel fight, a straight fight (Israel's this close to just entering the strip and making it just that) there is no possibility Hamas can win or Palestinians can avoid casualties on a scale that would make the current 375+ death total seem like peanuts.

But then at least ONE, probably more, entities would declare war on Israel, either Syria, Lebanon, all the states, Iran using th conflict as an excuse- or Hezbollah, with whom Israel's already had a war........
Denzel73 (100 D)
01 Jan 09 UTC
If I were PM of Israel, I would accept a seize-fire proposed by EU right now, Hamas seems to be shocked and accepting it unconditionally. Then, I would negotiate allowing open borders to Gaza, and start pumping some food and electricity, but not cash, there to make living more bearable for civilians, and less prone to corruption by Hamas.
Then... I'd lose Israeli elections....
Then, as the next PM of Israel, I would start some serious negotiations with Syria about Golan, with Iran (yes, directly) about Lebanon and nuclear issues and politics in general.
Then, I would lose Israeli elections again...
Then, as the 3rd PM of Israel, I'd say I apologize for everything Israel did to Palestinians so far, and express my pleasure about the talks made so far with Muslim leaders, and express hope that this could lead somewhere.
In the meantime, I'd shoot every armed Palestinian inside Israeli borders, but take care not to shoot those outside, even if they shoot at Israel. I'd invite Arab league to send troops to Gaza to deal with Hamas. And I'd fund their entire campaign.
And then, maybe, the 4th Israeli PM would get a Nobel Prize for Peace, along with the Palestinian president that would that be freely elected by the happy populace.

The plan would take 10 years and has 3% probability of success.

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609 replies
Invictus (240 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Tarablus for President
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8265
30 points, 24 hour phases, points per center.

It's mourning again in America.
3 replies
Open
wooooo (926 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
Very fast game (1 hour)
If anyone is up for the commitment of sitting down and playing a quick game (I expect turn deadline to be 15 minutes even if they are technically an hour) please respond. I will put up a password protected game if enough people do.
17 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Obama and Africa
This is a serious thread. Will Obama be effective in helping to bring political stability to Africa? Bush did more than any other President for AIDS relief and debt reduction, among other things, but will Obama be able to actually expand this to getting the African people the governments they deserve?
31 replies
Open
Bunny (0 DX)
24 Jan 09 UTC
What the?
!
11 replies
Open
fabiobaq (444 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
rules - supporting a supporting unit
Is it valid to support a supporting unit? I mean, Unit A on province X will support Unit B moving to a province Y. Is it valid to Unit C support Unit A holding, so that an enemy 1-supported movement into province X won't obtain?
2 replies
Open
philcore (317 D(S))
24 Jan 09 UTC
Ban Tarablus!!
That is bullshit!!! What the hell is wrong with you?
12 replies
Open
Onar (131 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
New game, just for fun
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8264
low point entry, anyone interested?
0 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
24 Jan 09 UTC
Where's the outrage?
The Sri Lankan military shelled a hospital and a village inside a government-declared "safe zone" for displaced families Thursday, killing at least 30 civilians, health officials said.
18 replies
Open
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
That was rude, Tarablus.
There were some active conversations that you just pushed completely off the board with your Spam.
3 replies
Open
Kompole (546 D)
24 Jan 09 UTC
KIEL CANAL
I know it's not on this maps, but it's on a table game of Diplomacy. What's its purpose? Does it allow convoys across from Helgoland Bight to Baltic sea?
2 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
23 Jan 09 UTC
New game
NO RIF RAFF
21 replies
Open
V+ (5465 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Help unpause game
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8179

The game was paused when a player was banned, and all have voted to unpause except one, France, who hasn't logged in for 50 hours. Thanks.
3 replies
Open
Friendly Sword (636 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Rules Question
This kind of a dumb question but I thought I'd make sure :P
(Below)
23 replies
Open
Friendly Sword (636 D)
22 Jan 09 UTC
In-game discussion tips
Friendly Sword is wondering whether there is a better and more effective way for Friendly Sword to talk :P?
25 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
20 Jan 09 UTC
I've noticed an amazing similarity here.
Obama and Biden
Osama bin Laden

They sound remarkably alike.
27 replies
Open
SirBayer (480 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Civil Disorder X
I have a question...
4 replies
Open
jhsu (137 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
New Game
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8252
Ice Cream, All you ever wanted.
0 replies
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Need help from a mod.
Can you please delete this game?
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8243
I accidentally made it not realizing I had already made a game with that title. Thanks!
8 replies
Open
canaduh (1324 D)
21 Jan 09 UTC
A question for the super-experience
In my experience, Russia getting Sweden in the first year puts Russia in a very strong position. I would go as far as saying that the first two years.

Has there been any research/thinking on this? Is there any evidence to back up my gut feel (based on the fact that Russia always wins when I play, and I cnnot convince Germany to block the overrunning of Sweden)?
8 replies
Open
amonkeyperson (100 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Convoy
Can you convoy an army thro TWO fleets in one turn?
10 replies
Open
mumford (290 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Booting players?
So is there a way to boot a player who is ruining a game by not finalizing orders, even during retreats and unit placing?
6 replies
Open
Vinnie the sifter (100 D)
23 Jan 09 UTC
Just for Fun-3
Please no experts on this game this is for novice players looking for a good time.
0 replies
Open
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