@"no, i was referring to the SPEECH. the actual action of hi talking is not dangerous. "
I was going to say "speech, if not inciting violence, is less worrisome than tyrannical law. " - but you beat me to it. Nuance there.
The antifa will claim that by their very nature, neo-nazi's being allowed to march incites violence. They call for violence to be done to now whites, and it is a danger to our society. Further they believe all upstanding US citizens should join with them in counter protest, to make the neo-nazis feel unsafe acting on their beliefs. Which is a method for countering this movement - not saying i agree it is a good method, but you can see the reasoning behind it.
@"this is also false, I never said they weren't dangerous, I simply said you have no evidence that they'd act violently if unprovoked AT THIS ONE SPECIFIC RALLY."
This is technically correct; but the absence of evidence is not evidence itself that they wouldn't be violent. What you have is 'we don't know how violent the neo-nazis would have been at this rally if not provoked'.
And again, the antifa movement means to suppress these neo-nazis by counter protest, intimidation, and violence (in what they see as self-defence - with lines like 'we're only punching nazis now so we don't hve to kill them later').
@"my primary point here is that having antifa present DID NOT HELP"
It depends on what you mean by help, but yes, confronting this kind of anger driven movement (the neo-nazis) with angry chants and abusive language does not help, it doesn't help calm the situation, it doesn't help convince the white supremacists understand that their racism is a sickness, it doesn't help defise the anger.
I believe we should have pity for neo-nazis and racists. We should treat them like we do the mentally ill. Because this illness is one in their minds. And the anti-fa are not doing this, they are attempting to control through intimidation. And while thry jistify any violence committed as self-defence (or defence of others, perhaps people of other races who aren't even there, but who in the future will be threatened by neo-nazis if someone doesn't stop the neo-nazis now...).
I have to repeat this, i disagree with anti-fa's tactics. I understand why they take this approach, they want to make public spaces in the US safe from fascists. They want to make black and latino americans feel like they can walk the streets witout fear of racial abise. But i don't know thst their tactics are going to succeed. I still appreciate that they are trying to do something noble - i'm sitting here as a keyboard warrior, and on twitter, not actually getting any skin in the game (but then i'm not in the US so there's little i can do).
Oh but i am in Ireland, so i can talk about relevant irish history. And i will again.
It is unclear who started the terrorist conflict in northern ireland, but it started out as legitimate protest (which the government of Northern Ireland banned); in the face of such a tyranical law, the protesters marched anyway, and the police (the RUC) fought them on the streets, rioting broke out - as you can see happening in the US when police lose credibility with a certain minority #BLM.
The British government (who are like the federal govt over-riding a state when taking direct actions in Northern Ireland) ended up sending in the army o stop the RUC from attacking Catholics (i'm sure there were some protestant protesters who went back to their homes peacfully but thry are forgotten in what happened after).
Unfortunately at this point we know there were some RUC members who sympathised with the paramilitary groups, and lent them support. That is police and eventualy british army members giving intelligence ad probably weapons to terrorists who used them to attack Irish Catholics.
Now the IRA used whatever power they had to retaliate, and as i've said we don't know who planted the first bombs, who helped escalated the situation from civil protest to full blown terrorist war. But it escalated. And the majority of people didn't support either loyalist nor nationalist paramilitaries.
Sometimes Catholics would feel safer going to the IRA than the RUC for police protection - probably because the RUC was supporting loyalist paramilitaries, and the IRA was intimidatibg catholics who went to the police. But the majority opposed violence for 30-40 years.
What we have in America is the beginings of a potential civil war. You've got extremists on both sides who want to provoke the middle ground. You've got Nazis who are happy to use violence when it suits them, and you've got anti-fa who believe their violence is justified.
The only saving grace is, BLM and anti-fa are not one and the same. There may be cross over, there may be violent extremists who belong to both groups, but the police (for all their racism and oppression) haven't been shown to be feeding info to these neo-nazis - unfortunately it doesn't require police collaboration for neo-nazis to get firearms... The US is in a very dangerous position right now. And the fear is the the alt-left will go and merge into an anti-state group, while the state become fascistic.
Trump drives fear number one. The commonalities between anti-fa, BLM and the black bloc are those groups who become a potential threat here, and the neo-nazis will be perfectly happy to see the state become more fascistic and cracking down on these counter protesters.
The FBI has a history of acting against protest groups who threaten the status quo - civil rights protester, anti-vietnam war protester groups, etc. While ignoring the KKK...
This can escalate, even while the majority of people 'in the middle' don't want violence. Left groups need to come up with alternatives plans to peacefully push their adgenda. The state needs to recognise the anger on both sides, and be better at policing these groups (neo-nazis forming a well regulated militia is protected under the constitution, and that is one reason i'm not going to the US any time soon - so the state has their hands tied).
The point where the army is called in to do police work is always going to end badly. Police and military individuals tend to lean right-wing authoritarian - that means the majority will follow whoever the legitimate authority is, this becomes an issue when that is unclear. The legitimacy of POTUS is already oretty sketchy if you ask me #Russia #popularvote.
World Cup 2016 Finals
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