I have labor. Another person wants my labor. I enact labor, and he gives me paper. Many see this as a transference of property, although what that property represents is a stated value of labor as it was demanded at a certain period of time.

So yes the state supports it's exchange value... But all currencies are lacking true intrinsic worth (compared to the labor it represents)

At the end of the day, it's almost like a contract, although "medium of exchange" is the true term best used. In any case, that medium represents labor, and you don't have a right to my labor


And when people state rights of government, or "states rights" I disagree with that. Mor ecorrectly it's states powers, that a citizenry at the time of the nations inception bestow upon it. All who like the nation follow its natural powers to seize labor for certain goods

Problems arise when the citizenry disagree on what powers the states should have. I think the right of people to have the government take money on their behalf and transfer it to them through programs or transfer payments is wrong. The government only should be in charge of monitoring externalities (where labor unintentionally affects others) crime (where labor oversteps its bound with the set law) and its own existence.


Socialized healthcare doesn't fulfill these basic requirements, the military (protectors of labor) are a commonly cited one that Does meet those requirements

I'll go down this rabbit hole in just a little bit jamiet, but right now I have to go pick up my little brother from soccer. "Responsibilite" and all. Why can't the government just collect more taxes and pay someone to do it for me? Why does everyone ignore my right to not have any self responsibility??!

"I think the right of people to have the government take money on their behalf and transfer it to them through programs or transfer payments is wrong."

Why is it wrong?

In a properly functioning democracy, the government IS the people.

So then by that logic slavery was fnee becase it's all the general will of the people, and individual rghts don't exosty

I don't believe that @Yanik provides charity to African Americans in North Tulsa as he claims. If he truly encountered people in need, he wouldn't be such a cold, heartless --individual. What pray tell Yanik have you learned from these people who have been blessed by your presence?

Tulsa day center for the homeless, look it up you bastard. Keep your bullshit to yourself

And I'm not heartless, I just see both sides of the spectrum. My family has had our premiums spike since obamacare and we've had urgent care close to us limit hours due to an influx of new people straining the staff. I had a temperature of 104 two years back, and we had to drive all the way to the hospital. That's your fucking regulation at work

What have you learned from the homeless, @Yanik?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I said I was getting my little brother from soccer. My momentarily silence isn't you winning Hauta. I'm always logged onto this site from a tab on my computer.

But to answer your question, what have I learned from the homeless?

The two biggest problems from what I can see is they either have a lot of kids to take care of, or some sort of mental handicap. These are not bad people, these are people who need help

I go out and help them. I don't sit at home posting blogs on tumblr about how the rich don't care about the poor. Nope. I go out there and *gasp* help the poor.

I don't want mandatory, BY FORCE claiming of money to put into shitty government programs that more often than not create dependency rather than help bring people to wealth.

I actually liked the 90s education programs: the cost of teaching the poor were WAY made up for by the increase in government revenue over the next decade and onwards. Politics shut them down, but they were definitely NOT libertarian, but I would support GOOD programs that paid for themselves and more!!!

You calling me heartless... Damnit Hauta why don't you get off your ass and go to a homeless shelter? What the hell do you know? What the hell HAVE YOU DONE?

And don't feel sad about not helping the poor, feeling sad doesn't help them. Go out sometime next weekend, and give back to your community. Very simple. Don't recede into the Internet, and leave it up to taxes: TAKE ACTION

I've heard this argument before from Capt_Brad (who is a charitable guy) but it doesn't make sense. Your personal conduct doesn't move the needle on a policy argument. Accordingly, what I do or don't do is not part of the discourse. I'm glad to hear that you don't blame the people for their plight.

Um... Whether or not we have a culture that promotes hard work and helping your fellow man, DEFINTELY affects the policy needle. However, if you don't like poverty, I 100% believe that if you've never done something as simple as a food drive, then you have no right to demand that other people need to pay more money and are greedy.

Besides, my policy argument is consistent, it should be free market, with only the most basic health and safety regs. What I'm saying should change is people should start to actually so shit out poverty rather than whining about it

I'm not changing the needle on policy, I'm simply saying if you don't like the poor having to live in such a state: do something. Don't force others to act and then pat yourself on the back

There are more people who need help than there are helpers who can afford to volunteer enough time.

Poverty is structural. To eliminate it you must change the economy. No amount of jumble sales and food drives will eliminate poverty.

@Hauta

After the destruction of small community values in America by the left? I'm almost inclined to believe they did put us in the situation

@jamiet

Structural poverty, but a structure affected by what? The economy? How about the culture. Sure if you support the big spending liberal boom bust economics you're going to get a lot of poor people, if you create a culture where we've had a NEGATIVE savings rate... Then yes you can have structural poverty.

The real question is why are there poor people who STAY poor? Stress of too many kids, an economic downturn destroying jobs structurally, and mental handicaps

children a problem? Hmm, maybe that's more of a cultural problem.

Jobs destroyed structurally? Well I support reeducation programs, as funded by communities

Mental handicaps? Sounds like the community needs to step up once again.


I do not understand why everyone always jumps to the federal government. In any case if inidicudal states want socialized healthcare, in which they self fund: let them. That's not my problem

That's always been my stance

I do not live in the United States, James, so where I live there is only one government - but something you said there seems odd to me:

"I do not understand why everyone always jumps to the federal government. In any case if individual states want socialized healthcare, in which they self fund: let them. That's not my problem."

Surely your state's government is still "the government", no? So if you'd be perfectly happy with your own state government bringing in socialized healthcare in your state, why would you object to the federal government doing the exact same thing? One government is okay, but the other one is not?

I'd rather it be individual communities who designed a socialized healthcare system, but at the end of the day I'd be fine with the states. I eneleive America was founded upon choice. If ONE state socializes then Everton had the option to leave that state free or repercussion.

Secondly, I don't want to tell an entire group of people they can't act as a group. That's fascism.

Probably the biggest reason against federalized healthcare is the inefficiency and bureaucracy

In Britain you're practically the size of the state, and a VERY small population... I'm guessing less than 4-5% want the NHS gone. Maybe I'm off with those statistics if someone can find a study for me I'd greatly appreciate it, but they want it so they do it. You have a collective concensus

We do not have a concensus among states, so I don't want the federal government to mandate this for EVERY state

Believe and everyone

Those two spelling errors

I've said this before, I'm not some hardline libertarian

Believe it or not.. not everyone is a socialist or communist and wants the government to take over the entire health-care industry.

@JamesYanik - Pregnancy can come from rape and not be covered under TrumpCare. So unless you think women should be kept in all female areas where they can't interact with males to prevent involuntary sex …. Note since male family members and teachers have been documented raping females you can't say those are safe males.

Also Congressional health insurance covers conditions that won't be covered under TrumpCare.

Well I think all the states should allow for abortions in cases of rape, but if there needs to be a specific federal bill mandating id be fine for that addendum

Who pays for that Congressional Health insurance, either directly or indirectly ?... The good taxpayers of the USA

listen guys it's been fun chatting but i'm off to bed. MajorMitchell i entirely agree, politicians and bureaucrats are VERY prone to abusing the system

I do not believe a child should be murdered because of the crime of the 'sperm donor'. My half-brother was conceived that way. I applaude you James for putting yourself out there for others. Don't let the self-centered jealousy of those who attack you affect your generosity. They sit on their asses and complain that there is not enough charity. If they helped there might be enough. But alas they only attack and complain and propose the robbery of others to solve social problems. They are self absorbed and short-sighted. And they would expect the government to solve problems and then attack the government for being over controlling or under performing. They have no real life. By that I mean that it is someone else's problem where you James understand it is OUR problem and we must be the solution. James I salute you!

@ Ogion...I just love your "Somalia.. the Libertarians paradise" comments. You're damn right..Small Government with the "for hire or sale" signs out, very little effective annoying regulations, plenty of guns. Crikey, if you want to run a business that pollutes the environment, pay the workers SFA, have Union organisers murdered, intimidated ( Henry Ford's approach to industrial relations ) & have an unlimited gun collection & avoid taxes with strategic bribery..then Somalia is the gun totin' Libertarian Paradise. Plus you can probably engage in unrestricted capitalism, run meth labs, indulge in slave trading, operate an unlicensed Casino & loan sharking racket, dabble in standover & prostitution. The only conundrum is..why hasn't the Somalian economy delivered the benefits of such policy settings ?

Single payer healthcare would be pretty close to a takeover of basic health insurance, but it would not be a takeover of healthcare delivery.

Brilliant play by the Republicans. Appeal to the young, since this benefits them the most, while rapidly killing off the old because they can no longer afford the health care they need to keep living.

"I do not believe a child should be murdered because of the crime of the 'sperm donor'. My half-brother was conceived that way."

I sympathize with your family situation, but no woman should be forced to bear a child conceived of rape.