@hellenic Your interest in Swedish politics is quite uncommon for british people but as you say you are politically involved and engaged. Honor to you for that even if I do not consider myself left wing.

But this issue of Putin33 being able to do so much detailed fact dropping, in any kind of discussion he involves himself in, amazes me regardless if he has a USA passport or a Russian passport. Regardless of where he lives.

peter,
ok
just a question, why EU needs Erdgon's Turkey so desperately?

also, stop your conspiranoia about putin33, your insistent denieng he's american will just inflate his ego, and no one wants that :p

The story about "Mothers in Moscow recieving their dead sons" is also "Impossible to prove but is used to prove other things", which we should avoid, unless it there is a way to prove it actually happened. Or that it didn't.

@principians. I am not denying he has a USA passport or that he lives in the USA, but I ask you how you know and claim this. Hopefully it is not just Putin33's own statements. But does it really matter. Also an etnic american can be paid off.

EU needs Erdogan because EU is in 100% incapable to resolve internally how to deal with the large number of refugees. Erdogan offered EU a bait that EU was not able to refuse.

Putin is a running dog apologist for the Moscow bourgeoisie.

(I have no idea what that means, but it sounds rather fun)

The word "bourgeoisie" was a popular old west european political word used the the far left here (communists) in the 70-ties and 80-ties meaning the rich capitalist people using the system to suck out the money and life from all good intending workers ("bourgeoisie" refers to the bad guys sort of in that lingu)

@maks-s15 if your "friend" in the Kreml has not blocked this already, this is what I found as the first link when googling on "Russian mothers receiving dead sons".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/what-does-russia-tell-the-mothers-of-soldiers-killed-in-ukraine-not-much/

I consider Washington Post a reliable newspaper, Don't you?

@maks-s15 and @octavious: are you able to read the article using the link I gave from Russia? Can you not find it using my search words?

You gave us a link from Russia?

No I am in Sweden. Does the link https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/what-does-russia-tell-the-mothers-of-soldiers-killed-in-ukraine-not-much/ work for you? Are you in Russia now?

I've never been to Russia. The link works fine in the UK :)

Ok. I certainly got that wrong, didn't I? :p

Easily done, although I imagine that it wouldn't be particularly difficult to access the link from St Petersburg

I don't know yet. If you decide to take control over all media it would be very natural to also limit Internet access to sites that spread an alternative view of the world than the regime promotes. That's why it would be interesting to know if maks-s15 can view the article or not.

Lol octavious, if you think the "will of the people" is actually expressed in bourgeois elections, you got another thing comin'

"Can I ask an honest question to Putin? Do you actually believe a single word you are saying?"

Do you believe a single word the western governments and media says? What exactly has given them credibility? Their lies used as a pretext for the Iraq war? Their repeated use of fake pictures in the media? Their lies about Syria (hey btw the "rebels" used mustard gas and chlorine gas within the last week, nice job NATO). Their lies about Libya?- Everything the western media says about the Russian government is hysterical nonsense and easily disproved. Villifying a leader is the west's alibi for having a disastrous, arrogant, and hypocritical foreign policy of bullying, meddling, and double standards. Self determination only counts if its a breakway republic from Yugoslavia, and only then if it's Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia or Kosovo. If it's the Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo they don't count. If it's Russian speakers in South Ossetia they don't count. If it's Russian speakers in Ukraine they don't count. But let's all pretend that they care about international law. They lied to the UN about the resolution that attacked Libya, claiming it had nothing to do with regime change. Then they go ahead and enact regime change and their rebel friends brutally murder the head of state while Clinton cackles. Who are we supposed to believe again? The Russian government just the other day stopped *yet another war* in the Caucasus and people like you continue to vilify it. How many fires does Russia have to put out to get any credit? They deserve memorials for their heroism defeating Daesh in Syria and saving the world from another failed state of epic proportions, and you call Putin a gangster? Who is helping Daesh assault the Kurds in Syria and blow up Syria's cultural heritage? Hint: It isn't Putin. It's America, Turkey, and the Gulf states.

Of course you don't believe anything of this but notice neither you nor our Swedish friend here dares to actually contradict anything, all you both do is use ad hominem attacks. The weak always rely on ad hominems when they have nothing else to offer.

"I don't know yet. If you decide to take control over all media it would be very natural to also limit Internet access to sites that spread an alternative view of the world than the regime promotes. "

Hilarious. Your friends in Ukraine and Turkey are the ones shutting down opposition media. Turkey just flat out took over Zaman newspaper by force. Where was the outrage from our Swedish friends? But in your eyes they're beacons of democracy. The EU just concluded a dirty refugee deal with them. Nice job EU!

The entire western media is nothing but a propaganda arm of NATO policy makers. They dare not write any articles of dissent because they'd instantly lose access. Hell they couldn't even bring themselves to say Israelis murdered the Palestinian man lying on the ground defenseless in Hebron. They openly had a policy of not describing American "interrogation techniques" as torture.

Whoever the paid propagandist is here it isn't me. It's Carl Bildt's doppleganger here.

Washington Post is a serious newspaper. Honest! They aren't paid mouthpieces of the US State Department.

http://fair.org/network-tv/cbs-network-tv/washington-post-prints-iraq-lies-2013-edition/

"But this issue of Putin33 being able to do so much detailed fact dropping, in any kind of discussion he involves himself in, amazes me regardless if he has a USA passport or a Russian passport. Regardless of where he lives."

Peterlund running around claiming I'm a paid agent of Russia (I wish!) spamming webdiplomacy of all things demonstrates conclusively why he'll lap up anything his own media tells him. He spouts accusations at whoever disagrees with him without any evidence whatsoever, much like the American government and its servile press. Slander seems to his first instinct, just like it's the Washington Post's first instinct.

"https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/what-does-russia-tell-the-mothers-of-soldiers-killed-in-ukraine-not-much/ work for you?"

Any and all Russians who are killed in Ukraine are deemed "Russian soldiers" by the press, the notion of Russian citizens volunteering in the Donbass militias is apparently lost on them. The same woman (Melnikova) who is the source of this report became famous for wildly exaggerating the number of Russian war dead in Chechnya. Right, 10,000 more Russians somehow died in Chechnya than who died in the whole of the Afghanistan campaign in the 1980s. Great source.

BTW your Kiev buddies claim that somehow Russian sent over 500 tanks and these tanks escaped the attention of US spy satellites as the Americans never brought this up. We all know Kiev always tells the truth, though.

"8-9 could easy have been handled internally inside Ukraine. If Kiev wants good relations to the EU, Kiev would have been forced to treat the Russians in those areas respectfully."

Hahaha you're a funny man. This is the same EU who hands Ukraine money while they have Praviy Sektor paramilitaries doing whatever they please. They cut off electricity in Crimea. They cut off power in Donbass in the dead of winter, in a deliberately effort to freeze them to death, a total war crime. The EU does nothing. The EU tried to cover up the Kiev governments murder of the Odessa trade unionists, claimed the trade unionists set themselves on fire.

As for the EU sticking up for the Russian minority in the Baltics. This is laughable in the extreme. Countless Baltic Russians remain stateless and the EU has no problem with it. They don't do anything while Baltic SS hold memorial marches. They don't do anything as the Baltics dismantle monuments to Russian war dead.

The fact that you think the Baltics treat Russians well thanks to the EU speaks volumes about your "credibility" on anything Russian related. And you think the people of Donbass being cluster bombed by Kiev could have worked it out with them, of course you do.

"while simultaneously trashing the "fascists" in Europe and the United States who participate (generally, and far more frequently than Russia) in actually free and fair elections - "

America only deems an election free and fair if they get the result they want. So billionaires controlling the political process in America is free and fair because it's always a choice between Neo-Cons and R2Ps. We'll see how free and fair it is when the ruling class gets a result they don't want (Trump getting the nomination). We'll see how quickly everybody apologizes for an outright convention coup. And yes I call people fascists who bring fascists to power. If you don't think they're fascists (in Ukraine) then please explain why the Prime Minister thinks Germany was the aggrieved party in WWII and why thugs affiliated with the government run around with neo-Nazi banners and praise Nazi collaborators.

The most authoritarian President of Russia by far was widely hailed as a flawless democrat by the west. That man being Yeltsin. Indeed, the west couldn't help but praise Yeltsin when he shelled the parliament and crushed the opposition to his rule. They praised him when he quite obviously rigged the election in 1996. So all this criticism of Russia's governmental system is a hoax because in actuality nobody really cares so long as they get the result they want. So long as Russia is ruled by a traitor and a drunk they're fine with whatever they do. Putin wants Russia to be independent and they can't have that. He must be the devil.

You didn't answer my question. You asked a question about whether I believe the "Western media." I asked if you believe what you're saying.
If I say, for example, "Russia is run by a gangster," it is not disproved by saying "America is run by fascists." Those are two mutually independent statements.

I believe that many in America will be disappointed if Trump is nominated, and it is likely that if he doesn't win outright there will be a contested convention - all within the rules. If that fails, hopefully the American people will vote for Hillary.

The American political process is ruled by the wealthy and connected - there is no doubt about that. But the Russia political process doesn't exist. Media controls, paramilitary "unrest squads," rampant corruption, etc. regardless of whether you dislike the American system of democracy, it is vastly more democratic than Russia's. Not sure you care about democracy - you don't seem to since you attack every country that has a democratic system. I bet you live in one of those countries too, don't you. Hypocrite. Move to Russia and see how you like it. Bet the Motherland smells a lot worse when you're in the shit.

peterlund, what exactly do you consider an "etnic american"?

On a side not, Putin makes so much more sense when he isn't talking about economic theory.

" I asked if you believe what you're saying."

I believe every word of what I'm saying otherwise I wouldn't say it. I've posted on this forum for more or less 8 years and I've gotten the same bullshit from people like you who can't debate their way out of sack. Tell me to go to Russia because America is apparently awesome, who cares if they overthrow governments to bomb everybody on the planet, we're supposed to shut up and salute the flag, is that it?

"But the Russia political process doesn't exist."

Which is why they have a sitting legal opposition, opposition controlled mayoralties and governorships and have no problem getting the opposition word out which people like you lap up, so long as the opposition isn't communist of course. Then you'd advocate shelling the parliament and rigging the elections.

The Russian system like any system is flawed, many of the flaws stem from the Yeltsin constitution I already mentioned. Prior to the 1993 standoff the parliament and opposition in Russia was far more robust. Russia's system is being openly undermined by overt attempts at overthrowing the authorities by the CIA and NGOs. But for whatever reason people like you have no problem with America or the west subverting the political process in other countries, and any effort to put a stop to that is tyranny.

"Not sure you care about democracy "

You sure don't. You want everybody to kiss America's behind because it has WWE style debates and elections. Who cares if people who actually speak out about what goes on are tortured and imprisoned, like Chelsea Manning, or exiled like Edward Snowden. Or that hundreds if not thousands are kept in prison without any charges. Keep on kissing America's rearend.

"Move to Russia and see how you like it. Bet the Motherland smells a lot worse when you're in the shit."

Buy me the ticket and I'll buy you a ticket to Guantanamo Bay. I'm sure you'd love it since everything America does is wonderful.

"The word "bourgeoisie" was a popular old west european political word used the the far left here (communists) in the 70-ties and 80-ties meaning the rich capitalist people using the system to suck out the money and life from all good intending workers ("bourgeoisie" refers to the bad guys sort of in that lingu)"

It's been in use for a lot longer than that and believe it or not the Swedes didn't invent the word. I'm sure your mind is blown.

"Also an etnic american can be paid off."

Nice racism there. I'm not "ethnic" my name is as Anglo as can be imagined. Anglos/"non-ethnics" can be bought off too I promise. Unfortunately nobody has made me any offers. If you can direct me to all this Russian money I'm supposedly getting I'd be very grateful. I could really do without these loans.

I don't disagree with Putin33 (though the whataboutism gets old) but I have to contest his assertion about genocide here:

"Typical Russophobic Swede denies the campaign of genocide being carried out on the people of donbass by the Kiev authorities."

There's no genocide being committed in Donbass, not in any sense of the term. This isn't the Yazidis being murdered and expelled from their lands by ISIS.

"On a side not, Putin makes so much more sense when he isn't talking about economic theory."
The ironic part of this statement is that Vladimir Putin rose to power by saving an economy.

"Which is why they have a sitting legal opposition"
A token opposition is hardly an opposition. After taking his seat as the figurehead of United Russia, the party managed to be so ambiguous and Putin so dominant that the political system became swamped under his thumb. The 7% threshold in the Duma doesn't help either.

"But for whatever reason people like you have no problem with America or the west subverting the political process in other countries, and any effort to put a stop to that is tyranny."
Not necessarily, some of us are isolationists who believe governments almost everywhere are run by dirtbags. Politics is a cutthroat world with hardly any intrinsic motivation to get involved.

"It's been in use for a lot longer than that and believe it or not the Swedes didn't invent the word. I'm sure your mind is blown. "
More specifically, the word "bourgeoisie" comes from the French word for the medieval burgher class (which also lent its name to the House of Burgesses of Colonial Virginia). A small town merchant class, the burghers were in economic competition with the guilds and political competition with the nobility. Economically, the world market stimulated the demand of Europe, which the guilds in their more professional production of goods could not assuage, but the burghers industrialized and produced goods quickly enough to supply the people of Europe. This industrialization is where Marx distinguishes the class as becoming the bourgeoisie, a term which initially became popular around Europe as opposed to other words in the mid-19th century. The industrial bourgeoisie overthrew the nobility politically to establish representative governments to use as its puppets and created the industrial wage laboring class, the proletariat. Worldwide, they have become the major if not sole owners of the world's wealth, no matter how much is generated by capitalism.

Again, you completely failed to respond to my comments and instead launches into another pathetic diatribe about how I love bombing babies in Vietnam. I have never stated that America is flawless, but is it far less flawed that you characterize it. You relentlessly use hyperbole and vicious, denigrating comments about "the West" as a way to deflect criticism that is absolutely justified against the strongman countries ou seem so proud of. Let's put it this way: there's a continent that is run (in the majority of countries) by strongmen; it's called Africa. How are things going there?

You speak incessantly about unfounded conspiracy theories directed by scheming bastards in the west to oppress the rest of the world. Generally, I would say the intention of American actions abroad have historically been:
A) to eliminate or reduce potential military threats (USSR, China)
B) reduce the influence of said potential military threats (Vietnam, Korea)
C) take action against perceived irregular (non-state) threats (Afghanistan, Syria)

Many times, these actions have resulted in unintended consequences, or consequences that in hindsight appear to have been easy to spot in advance but weren't or were ignored. I personally find international intervention an area where the United States over-acts and under-delivers (at least in terms of positive results). Put me in the non-interventionist camp on that.

But it by no means makes the United States "evil." It simply means it is run by people who make mistakes and terrible errors in judgement. We have a system in place that is intended to punish politicians for those mistakes by voting them out of office. A side effect of this type of system is that generally almost half the population is chronically upset with the current regime. But at least they can hope for two, four or six years down the road when they have another opportunity to vote in their favored policy makers.
To use your eponymous leader as an example (by no means the only strongman, but convenient), he has been continuously in power as the leader of Russia for 16 years - as President, then PM with a frontman President to sidestep term limits, and back as President. That's cool - for people who like Putin. It kind of sucks for everyone else, and for Ukranians in Crimea, the people being gassed by Bashar Assad, Muslims in Russia, anyone who wants to see an increase in standard of living and life expectancy in Russia, etc.

What is so sickening about your positions is that they are absolutist: YOU ARE BAD, WE ARE GOOD. That simpleton logic suggests to me that you lack the ability to think critically. So I'm going to stop now. Arguing with you appears to be like arguing with a stump.