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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Thucydides (864 D(B))
14 Apr 10 UTC
Okay, look.
I want to apologize.
50 replies
Open
KaptinKool (408 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Gunboat-72 - To all players.
Good game all :-)
1 reply
Open
Emperor Ming (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Not Allowing Some Convoys
In a WW4 game...
3 replies
Open
The Dream (765 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Live Gunboat game in 20 mins
Live gunboat in 20 mins need 3 more http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=26747
2 replies
Open
lulzworth (366 D)
13 Apr 10 UTC
God and Sin
I've noticed in a lot of the religiously oriented threads that it comes up (as in "What if God killed himself?") that God, being perfect, cannot do certain things (like kill himself) on the basis that they are sins. I wanted to offer some extended analysis of this contention...
30 replies
Open
Jimbozig (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
live gunboat
in 45 minutes: gameID=26728
3 replies
Open
Jimbozig (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
2 more for a gunboat
live in 8 minutes: gameID=26735
0 replies
Open
rlumley (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
I can't send messages in my games...
WTF?
5 replies
Open
dave bishop (4694 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
"All My Friends Know That It Keeps The Bad Thoughts"
This high pot, gunboat WTA game just finished.
Hopefully the players involved can give their thoughts about what was an interesting game.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=22383
2 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
14 Apr 10 UTC
WTA Player Needed
A player is needed to fill-in for a final game in the TMG Masters' tournament.
Reply to this post if you are interested

Ghost
11 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
15 Apr 10 UTC
The Irish Secret service.
...
6 replies
Open
Jimbozig (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
gunboat live
starts in one hour: gameID=26731
10 replies
Open
joey1 (198 D)
13 Apr 10 UTC
Need to go for 3 days
Hello, I am going to be away from Thursday evening (EST) to Sunday evening (EST) with no access to the internet. Is there someone who is able to babysit my games. I am going to try to get them to pause, but I know that does not always work.

Joey
4 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
15 Apr 10 UTC
Better End Of Game message needed
The game has ended: You survived until the end, but because this is a winner takes
all game you got no points returned. Better luck next time!
18 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Hellifield Peel Castle http://bit.ly/bwjfVf
This was featured on the UK TV program "Grand Designs", which follows people who are building themselves homes.

It is gorgeous, isn't it?
1 reply
Open
Panthers (470 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Live Medi. in 13 minutes........
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=26725
1 reply
Open
Jimbozig (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
gunboat game starting soon
0 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
14 Apr 10 UTC
Make Up The Lyrics As We Go!
One line per post, and match the rhythym of the original tune.

First...
20 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
All Rise, Caps Off For April 15th- Jackie Robinson's Anniversary!
Happy Jackie Robinson Day! On this day 63 years ago on April 15th, 1947, Jackie Robinson played his first game (at 1st Base, not his usual 2nd Base) for the Brooklyn Dodgers becoming the first African American to play Major League Baseball, breaking the Color Barrier and starting so much: a round of applause for #42- JACKIE ROBINSON!
0 replies
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dontbcruel (175 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Ancient Game Going
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=26697

Play it old skool, kids.
0 replies
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Jimbozig (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
live gunboat
in 10: gameID=26694
7 replies
Open
`ZaZaMaRaNDaBo` (1922 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Nuther Gunboat
2 replies
Open
taylank (100 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
WTA live gunboat
3 replies
Open
ReaverNecris (130 D)
15 Apr 10 UTC
Superiority Complexes. They need to die.
I mean really whether it's mac vs pc or ps3 vs xbox or anything like that people always say: "Oh this is so much better than THAT because of this and this and this and you are retarded for THINKING OTHERWISE"
I have nothing personal against Apple but I have a couple friends that constantly go on and on about how a mac is so much better. I've used a mac before and I don't see it.
10 replies
Open
Stukus (2126 D)
14 Apr 10 UTC
Favorite Words
My favorite English word is "sleeping dictionary." It means, "a foreign woman with whom a man has a sexual relationship and from whom he learns her language." What are your favorite words?
45 replies
Open
5nk (0 DX)
15 Apr 10 UTC
2 Live WTA Gunboats
gameID=26701 - starting in 1 hr
gameID=26702 - starting in 2 hrs
5 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
10 Apr 10 UTC
A Witch! A Commie! A Metagamer!
Seriously, its like Salem or the Red Scare, all these accusations all the time... yeesh!
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TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
"whether this was the intention of your founding fathers is a rather unimportant point."

This happens annoyingly often, but, I am not an American!

"Is it not possible to admit that those working on the other side are infact trying to achieve something good, even if you disagree about how they plan to do it. Once you admit their motives are pure then you have a base to work from."

But I am an egoist, and I believe in the property right. I actively *don't* think that their motives are good!
orathaic (1009 D(B))
11 Apr 10 UTC
No, you think their morals are messed up, not that THEY think they are doing wrong.

They are trying to do what they think is good, and while you could say that about nazi's too they are not trying to kill and eat your children (at present)
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
If you mean to say that "I don't think that they are actively attempting to malevolent", then yes, but that is hardly worth saying, I don't think!
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
11 Apr 10 UTC
"My objection to government is an objection to the use of force. "
@TGM, so you're against the military and police? How about evicting deadbeat tenants? How about forcing deadbeat parents to pay child support? How about forcing people who drive to follow traffic laws?
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
Ok, Police and Military use force in self-defence, which is a totally different matter.

Similarly, removing deadbeat tenants is a matter of defending the property right, deadbeat parents are equally not fulfilling the duty they have to their children for bringing the children into the world.

As for Traffic Laws, I would remove them, sell the roads, and allow the owners of the roads to set the rules. Then enforcement is a simple matter of the property right again.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
* self-defence

or indeed defence of the rights of others

When somebody breaks another's rights, they loose any claim to their own.
BBanner (203 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
I've actually seen police and military use force in non self-defense, so I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, chump.
Cyrano (354 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
@TGM Are you serious with the selling the roads comment? Reducing roads to private property, and allowing private individuals to dictate the traffic laws is one of the craziest things I've ever heard!! It would lead toa 10 mile stretch of road having 20 different speed limits, several differing lane variations, and a hundred other bits of chaos! Not to mention the cost of upkeep for the roads, which would fall to the now private owners, which would force them to enact tolls for the use of their roads! Your suggestion would ultimately lead to nothing less then the death of our automotive society! Not saying I'm against that, but there are MAJOR flaws with privatizing control of roads and traffic laws.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
"I've actually seen police and military use force in non self-defense, so I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, chump."

I agree, the police and military do act against citizens who have not broken anyone's rights, and I'm as much against it as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to having a police service, I'm opposed to the immoral acts within it.

Cyrano, I'll address your points in another post.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
But the answer is yes, I'm deadly serious (err... no pun intended)
jman777 (407 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
you know, roads used to be almost exclusively privatized.

If we were to have our roads privatized then it would require heavy government regulation (i.e. speed limits, lane sizes, ect). But the idea itself isn't that bad. Of course it could end up being like the train industry in the 19th century, and if monopolies started forming then it would become far to expensive to travel. So, again, the government would just need to regulate it heavily. The idea as a whole isn't that bad though, to be honest.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
Okay, this extract from an open letter to "Mothers against Drunk Driving":

My second suggestion is far more radical. Please hear me out. There are very important matters at stake. True, the highway fatality rates have been declining in recent years.[3] But 41,480, the number of people who perished as a result of improper automobile use in 1998, for example, is still far too high. Desperate circumstances require radical solutions.

The radical suggestion I offer is that MADD adopt as one of its major policy planks the proposal that our nation's roadways be privatized. And this includes not only the federal interstate highway system but every byway, country road, city street, and even sidewalk — wherever vehicle-related deaths have occurred. Why? There are several reasons.

First, it is not at all true that speed, alcohol, drugs, etc., are ultimately responsible for vehicular death. Rather, they are only the proximate causes. The underlying explanation is that the managers of the roads, those in charge of them, have failed to deal with these problems. The reason Chrysler went broke is only indirectly related to car size, changing styles, competition, imports, the price of oil and gas, etc. This company was bankrupted because its managers failed to meet these challenges. When a restaurant shuts down, it is not due to such proximate causes as poorly cooked food, poor service, bad location, unclean premises, etc. Rather, this circumstance is due to the fact that the owners, operators, managers of the restaurant failed to address these problems.

Second, with a system of private highways and streets, the various owners would compete with one another to provide service for their customers (including, preeminently, safety). Those who failed (e.g., pursued policies detrimental to the "health of children and other living things") would be forced either to change the error of their ways or go belly up. Those who saved lives by better dealing with drunkards, speeders, etc., would earn profits and thus be enabled to expand the base of their operations.

Third, this is precisely the system — privatization — that vastly outstripped that of the U.S.S.R. in providing computers, cars, clothes, and a plethora of other products and services. Yet, instead of borrowing a leaf from our own success and applying it to highways, we have instead copied the discredited Soviet economic system and applied it to our network of roadways. That is, our highway network is governmentally owned and managed. This is why people die like flies on these roads and suffer from traffic congestion serious enough to try the patience of a saint (which also exacerbates casualties through road rage).

Fourth, the rules of the road that would minimize automobile accidents (this goes for most other valuable economic recipes) do not come to us from on high, imprinted on stone tablets. Rather, they have to be learned, ofttimes by hard and difficult experience. The time-honored and traditional capitalist way of learning is by allowing all entrepreneurs, willing to risk their own money, free rein to do exactly as they please. The ones who hit upon the best way of proceeding earn profits; those who do not either have to copy the successful or fall by the wayside. It is precisely this, the magic of the marketplace, that has brought us our world-class standard of living. But this learning process cannot possibly take place when politicians, bureaucrats, and other members of the nomenklatura class determine the rules of the road, and do not lose an iota of their personal fortunes when they err in this way, or, indeed, are guilty of any other sort of highway mismanagement.

We all deplore highway casualties. But at least when they occur, let us have a system wherein someone in authority loses money thereby. There is nothing that concentrates the managerial mind more. At present, when deaths take place, there is no one in a position to ameliorate matters who suffers financially. Surely we may expect better results from a system that monetarily rewards the successful and punishes those who fail than from one that does neither.

Take a case in point. It is perhaps a truism that "speed kills." Yet the rate of fatalities has decreased after the elimination of the 55 mph speed limit. Some analysts have suggested that it is not the average rate of travel that is determinative but rather the variance in speed. That is, we might all be safer with a slow-lane speed requirement (both minimum and maximum) of 60 mph, a middle lane of 70 mph, and a fast lane of 80 mph than with the present minimum of 40 mph and maximum of 70, typical of many highways. I don't know the answer to this question. But I do know the best way to answer it: unleash a new breed of road entrepreneurs on it. Allow each of them to address this issue as they wish. Then, using the same system we as a society have utilized to improve the quality of cars, computers, and clothes, among other things, we shall find the answer.

Take another example, closer to the concerns of MADD. How best to stop drunk driving? Heavier penalties? More emphasis on driver education? More police monitoring? Rewards for exemplary driving? Payment for joining Alcoholics Anonymous? Again, the same principles apply. Privatize the avenues of vehicular transportation, and rely upon the new owners — under the tutelage of the free-enterprise, profit-and-loss system — to find solutions.

One of this new breed of highway proprietors, of course, would be MADD. Under such a system, a revitalized and reinvigorated MADD, as an organization, would be able to implement its own policies on drinking while driving, speeding, whatever. It would have to take its chances in competition with all other entrants into this industry, but that is the way of the market system.

At present, in contrast, under a road system that would bring a smile to the face of a Russian commissar, there is simply no managerial role for MADD to play. Compare your situation with that of Ducks Unlimited, Western Wilderness Society, or any other environmental group. They are not relegated to the sidelines in their analogous field, limited to offering advice, and, in a word, begging the powers that be. They can of course do these things. But they can also buy up vast tracts of land (they would have been unable to do this in the U.S.S.R.) and manage them as they please.[4] Why should MADD accept its present inferior status, vis à vis these other groups?

There are those who will dismiss these suggestions as the ravings of a lunatic. They will throw up all sorts of obstacles and objections: the specter of having to place a coin in a toll box of every home you pass by in the street; of having your house surrounded by private road owners who deny access and egress; of crazy road owners who would demand weird behavior, such as forcing everyone to travel in reverse gear. However, there is a wealth of published material refuting these and all other criticisms of private highway ownership and management.[5] Before giving in to the "nattering nabobs of negativism," you owe it to yourself to at least familiarize yourself with this literature.
_____________________________

I would add a footnote to the effect that toll systems don't have to involve stopping the car and putting a coin in a toll booth. Other systems do exists, involving modern technology.

In addition, the early roads in America were largely built by private citizens for whole the presence of the road was very valuable indeed.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
"If we were to have our roads privatized then it would require heavy government regulation (i.e. speed limits, lane sizes, ect). But the idea itself isn't that bad. Of course it could end up being like the train industry in the 19th century, and if monopolies started forming then it would become far to expensive to travel. So, again, the government would just need to regulate it heavily. The idea as a whole isn't that bad though, to be honest."

You wouldn't need regulation:

Speed limits and other things related to safety would be imposed by the owners, nothing is more damaging to business than to have a crash on your road, and the police have to come in to investigate, whilst you have to clear up etc. etc. except perhaps people being too scared to go on the road.

The monopoly issue is perhaps more serious, however if you tried to overcharge in this situation, you'd just get more car sharing, etc. (good things anyway) and so less business.
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
Colour me a nattering nabob on this one. Privatised roads? Christ on a bike! The example of the privatisation of the UK's railways should demonstrate why this is a bad idea. (The rail system in the UK worked a lot better nationalised than it does now after privatisation)
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
Perhaps if we didn't have a stupid system where the government spends 5.2 billion on the private railways and regulates them to within an inch of their lives we'd be better off on that front.

Have you any evidence for the assertion that the rail network has got worse since it was privatised?
nola2172 (316 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
TGM - The fundamental problem with your road issue is that there is no way for a private company to actually get the land on which to build a road unless they are building a new subdivision (or something to that effect) in which they just buy a huge chunk of land from a handful of people. Virtually all roads through populated areas (in particular expressways) require the use of emminent domain (and/or the associated laws about government use of property) because otherwise, there is no way to put in a road.

For instance, let's say that some private entity wants to put in a new road somewhere because that road is critically necessary (for whatever reason). Well, they have to individually contact every single owner of the properties on which that road will be built and either buy the land, lease it, or get some other sort of legal contract that allows them to build the road. If any of those individuals does not agree to do this (for instance, they have enough money already, the like their land, and they don't want a road on it), then regardless of how important that road might be, it can't be built. This is a serious problem that can only be solved by the use of emminent domain (because again, there are some people that just can't be bought), but now the government is using force to take your land to give it to someone else to profit from it, and that is really not a great arrangement.

Finally, in assuming that people will choose different roads if the one is poor, that is just not viable. There are a lot of places to which only one road goes, and if that road is in bad shape and the owners don't care, then people that have to use the road are essentially hosed. Road building is extremely expensive (early roads were dirt, not concrete and asphalt, which cost an order of magnitude more), and private individuals will frankly lack the funds to build the roads they need (especially the rural roads that are critical to our agricultural industry, but not important enough that the average person would willingly fund them).
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
To address a few of the points you make.

I do accept the criticism that it is hard to build roads in cities without government action. Then again, its hard *with* government action too. There is chronic congestion near where I live, right next to a massive field, yet the government regulation about that open space means that it would be impossible for me to build another road *even if I wanted to*.

"There are a lot of places to which only one road goes, and if that road is in bad shape and the owners don't care, then people that have to use the road are essentially hosed."

Dead ends are either in the countryside, where it normally isn't economically viable to maintain the road properly, or very short in the cities, where if its that big a deal, you can just park elsewhere and walk, so there is an active incentive to keep the road functioning properly- more people will use it.

As for funds, co-ops could be formed or tolls charged.

With agriculture, it would be offset with an increase in a price in food, and since the tax bill wouldn't be there, you'd be more than able to cover for that increase.
BBanner (203 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
i love libertarians. i do.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
11 Apr 10 UTC
Yeah, I'll second that, Jamiet.
...and as we all know from recent mine disaster in the U.S. the problem is that these poor private enterprises have too much safety regulation and all. Heck, if we let the mining companies do what they do best (make a profit at the expense of all considerations) then those companies that were too unsafe would no longer have workers or customers because of their bad reputation. Not. No - the reason for the mine disaster more than anything is that they specifically cut corners on safety to put profits first... and were even willing to absorb fines and less than happy workers to do so. Is there any penalty suffered in the market place for this ongoing atrocity of an unsafe culture in this particular company? No. They are the fourth largest energy coal company in the country... and even with hundreds of safety violations yearly and disasters every few years their stock price still rises over the long haul. The value of the stock of the company (Massey Energy) is more than double what it was in 2003 and more than 5 times what it was in 2000. Hurray for the free market. The problem is that they don't see it in their self interest to safe... it costs too much, shall we say... and the market has rewarded their perspective. ...the problem is that we haven't made it enough of a negative for them to be unsafe... they need to be more regulated (higher penalties) not less.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
11 Apr 10 UTC
If there was no regulation then we'd still have the Pinto on the road... the bean counters at Ford decided that the cost of some extra deaths and resulting lawsuits was less than the recall and redesign would cost. See... to companies like that you and I are numbers on a ledger sheet... that is all. Ever wonder why companies outsource and move their plants overseas? Yeah, its because of the regulation... but do they use that new found freedom to be safer overseas? more environmentally responsible? more fair to their workers? I think not. No - when you don't regulate you get Bhopal... and higher profits for the stock holders. Everyone's happy.
nola2172 (316 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
TGM - I do agree that it is hard in cities with government action, but it would be nigh impossible without it to build roads there. However, in Grand Rapids, MI (which is near where I live), there was a massive reconstruction of the central expressway that was completed a few years back that improved traffic flow quite a bit. It would be almost impossible for a private entity to do this because it would lack the legal authority to use the additional land, shut down all sorts of other roads (and pour traffic onto others) and do what is necessary to get it done. The fact is that roads are available for use by anyone, and since they are publically useable, it really helps if the public (i.e. the government) owns them.

For agriculture, if you increased the cost of locally grown food by making them pay for their own roads, you would essentially destroy the domestic agriculture industry because imported food (which would be grown in countries in which the government pays for the roads) would be cheaper. I don't see that being a great idea.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
11 Apr 10 UTC
glibertarians.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
11 Apr 10 UTC
Question: Would UPS or Walmart or Exxon (to name three big private users of the road system in the U.S.) be for privatizing the road system? I doubt it very much. Having dependable roads for everywhere they go to (everywhere in the U.S., more or less) is in their self-interest. (And as a customer of each of these companies, it is also in my self-interest). The only entity that can make that happen is the government.
BBanner (203 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
dexter don't you understand!! rational people make rational decisions. ergo if we just let everyone make rational decisions everything's gonna work out okay! see adam smith for details. now, this is the most moral thing, because ayn rand said so.

why no, there's absolutely no parallels between my retarded faith in the "free market" and religious faith!
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
@ TGM: "Have you any evidence for the assertion that the rail network has got worse since it was privatised? "

Yes. Here goes:

1. Britain now has the highest rail fares in Europe, and on average rail fares in the UK are 50% higher than in the rest of Europe. (Source: PassengerFocus survey, February 2009) Isn't privatisation supposed to lead to lower prices thanks to the wonders of competition?

2. In the 30 years before privatisation, there was only one fatal accident on Britain's railways. In the five years following privatisation, there were 5 fatal accidents.

3. Most damning of all is the cost to the taxpayer. We are now paying THREE TIMES more in subsidies to the private rail companies, in real terms, than we did to operate British Rail under public ownership. If that doesn't represent a dramatic failure, I don't know what does.

This article is also a fun read: http://www.publicvalues.ca/ViewArticle.cfm?Ref=00394
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
11 Apr 10 UTC
:-)
What libertarians seem to forget in their love of self-interest and the greed is good ideal is that that is exactly why government exists. ...because it is in our self-interest.
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
11 Apr 10 UTC
Jamiet +1
Chrispminis (916 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
"The argument that communism doesn't work because of "human nature" is in my view fndamentally flawed. "

You would argue that humans do not have an inherent nature? That we are simply Blank Slate results of our environment?

orathaic, I would actually argue that capitalism does not reward selfishness. Selfishness rewards itself. It's the very fact that selfish behaviour increases the lot of oneself that makes selfishness rewarding. The same would be true in a communist society where a selfish person might be rewarded by not working as hard but reaping the same benefits. Selfishness is rewarding in and of itself. Capitalism really rewards drive, desire, innovation, intelligence, providing valuable goods and services, etc. You can spend your money on others, and you can build a successful business model based on giving yourself a lower salary to contribute more to charity, or having a percentage of your sales going to charity, and yes it's true, that this will hurt the competitiveness of your business, but that is the result of the simple fact that over any timescale the businesses and persons that will be most successful are the ones that invested in themselves. I mean, this is the reason that evolution has led to very restricted forms of altruism, because the only organisms left alive to reproduce are the very ones that invest their resources in themselves and their kin.
Chrispminis (916 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
Whoa, I missed page four.
Chrispminis (916 D)
11 Apr 10 UTC
I'm not going to go as far as privatizing roads, because I haven't given it enough thought. I will say though that "It would lead toa 10 mile stretch of road having 20 different speed limits, several differing lane variations, and a hundred other bits of chaos!" is pretty silly considering the various standards and co-ordination that already exist within industries of fully privatized firms. It would be in the interest of owners to maintain some consistency.

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310 replies
joey1 (198 D)
14 Apr 10 UTC
Canada or US which one is more "Pro-life"
In the general atmosphere of this forum I thought that I would ask the question - Which country is more pro-life in its entire outlook

[Warning this may be seen as a challenge to American Republicans]
13 replies
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taylank (100 D)
14 Apr 10 UTC
WTA Gunboat in 20 mins
5 replies
Open
taylank (100 D)
14 Apr 10 UTC
Gunboat starting in 15
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=26696
2 replies
Open
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