Of course what you all are missing is Sicarius is actually a deep-cover government agent disguised as a diplomacy player. He's on a years-long mission to root out dissidents within the United States who play diplomacy and to take them off to Gitmo.

Watch out guys, don't agree with him or else you're going to Gitmo!

I thought I was the only one who saw through thinly veiled disguise.

oops... his thinly veiled disguise.

No, Spyman, your first post was correct. You are the only one who sees through thinly veiled disguises. The rest of us just kinda ramble. Life's more fun that way!

thucy are you saying my political beliefs stem from watching trashy 80's indian movies

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thought you might find that interesting

whoops.

Sicarius is right about dog wolf IQ difference, the braincase of dog's is much smaller than a wolf's even when you take into account the different body size. In fact all domesticated animals have a smaller brain size than there wild original forms. Maybe that is why some people ignore the signs and climb into the pit with an animal at the zoos.

warsprite, not sure where you got that idea. I mean, it's not like dogs nor wolves can be tested for IQ... I wouldn't be surprised if most domesticated animals have a smaller brain size than their wild counter parts because they face completely different selection pressures that favour more meat or resistance to pathogens far more than intelligence. That said, social animals like dogs and wolves are generally quite intelligent and since many dogs are bred for social companionship or for performing tasks such as shepherding I can see them being just as smart if not smarter. It takes a lot of brainpower to understand the intricacies of social relationships and hierarchies, and it's often said that evolution gave us our big, beautiful brains to cope with increasing size in social groups and the emphasis on social relationships.

Here's an article which cites research done at Eotvos Lorand University's department of Ethology which debunks the misconception brought on by an earlier study that wolves were smarter than dogs.

http://is.itk.hu/mbs/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=161&Itemid=154

Intelligence is very relative to the environment in which you live. That's why I'm still skeptical as to the usefulness of the IQ test. It certainly measures something, but I'm not so sure that it measures anything that can or should be used to judge people's intellectual capabilities.

I wish I could find it, but recently I read article new scientist magazine that partially debunked the notion that wolves are more intelligent than dogs. The gist of the article was the wolves and dogs had different cognitive abilities to help them survive in their respective environments. Dogs have developed mental abilities to facilitate social harmony with humans. Certainly in terms of helping their survival as a species it has been an effective evolutionary path.

Dogs might be the species that has exploited and is riding upon the success of humans the most. Haha. They're currently doing far better than wolves, at least.

@Chrisp/spyman's point: The evolution of all domesticated dogs is due to selective breeding. People choosing desirable traits that they want passed on and preventing dogs with undesirable traits from doing so. As such we have breeds of dog which are massive and protective, ones that are small and sociable, ones that are fast and good at tracking and so on.

Intelligence is of course relative (Even IQ tests prove little but how good you are at taking IQ tests, you can draw conclusions from it but they're meaningless when it comes to actual application). Especially when it comes to comparing domesticated dogs with wild wolves. Parts of the brain that suit hunting and other activities are much more important in the wild and would prosper in wolves, whereas parts that provide better companionship and security to humans prospers in domesticated dogs because we try to bring out the traits that cause this.

To be fair, the most important aspect of intelligence as we see it is how fast you learn things and what you are actually capable of learning. Considering we domesticate dogs rather than wolves doesn't that suggest that dogs are smarter? I can't picture teaching a wolf to sit, play dead and roll over, or to stay outside a house and protect a family from possible threats. Since we can teach the dogs we domesticate to do those things and not wolves I think that makes them smarter. We can teach them these things easier and more effectively.

Haha. Initially it sounded like you were disagreeing with us. It's interesting that you say the most important aspect of intelligence is how fast one learns things. I would gladly debate that. =D

I would say that intelligence is primarily pattern recognition which helps with learning, but more importantly (but quite related), prediction. We are constantly making predictions, computing the consequences of our actions and the actions of others before they happen.

this was at the rnc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tojPFEGoNAo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myNORxFKuuE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKzD14FeL9I&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml4ZVdmV16M&feature=related

watch them and let me know what you think about them

Chrispminis I was not literal meaning IQ, and I was not saying that dogs are stupid just not as smart as an wolf. I own a GSD and I'm always impressed with her ability to learn and solve problems. Yes I've seen the artical before but I'm not so sure the environments were the same for both dog and wolf. The film I saw showed the wolves kenneled together while the dogs went to the trainers homes. This could have major effects on how and what is learned. Also some of the behaviors described are at least partly hardwired into the dogs brain as is the ability to read human body language and voice tones and does not show intelligence. The ability to solve problems by wolves was there for biased to the dogs instinctive behavior.