@Zmaj (way back in the thread):
There is a great French saying:
" La dictature c'est "ferme ta gueule", la démocratie "cause toujours"!
In English:
Dictatorship says: "Shut your mouth.” Democracy says: "Talk all you like, I'm not interested." "
Love it!
I've lived under both models of governance. Both statements say the same thing: 'Your concerns, wishes and desires for yourself and your family are worthless because you are powerless, ie you are not rich.'
I've been living in China for quite a number of years now. The powers-that-be have now evolved enough to use these statements interchangeably.

@Socrates, that's really not a good idea. To be able to help such people best, you have to get to know them, feel to what extent their problems are caused by their own shortcomings and those of the state. See how they respond to you.

I agree you do need to get to know people, and really I think one should do both, develop themselves and help the community - most of us have the time to. It was more a philosophical thought rather than a realistic point

Timur, I love the French attitude towards governments of any kind. They're intellectually fearless and always doubt everything. I bet the French will invent a better system than democracy.

Fair enough :-)

However, just to be on the safe side, they block YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, etc etc.
So it's: "Talk to us all you like; we're not even listening. Just don't talk to anyone else!"

Timur, are things improving? From what I see, China has become more relaxed.

'intellectually fearless '
From my experience of the French, this comes over as unbearable arrogance.

I relate to poor people in the US on a daily basis. The causes of poverty are many and varied, but I've never seen a case where the problem was a lack of opportunity or resources. There is plenty of government assistance, from housing to food stamps to education to healthcare. Government asisstance can help, but it can also hinder. I am glad to have social safety nets, but there can be an impersonal, dignity-robbing aspect to beauracracy that actually discourages personal empowerment - I've seen it too often. Most significant life change - in my observation - occurs when people are given dignity through caring human relationships.

@Zmaj: Don't believe the PR handouts. It's the same old society set in its same old ways. Only now it's got its eye on the big money to be harvested from you, me and all foreign countries.

Well actually not a lot from me :~/

So, nothing new in China? I guess millennia of tyranny are hard to get rid of.

As for the French, yes, arrogance is the unfortunate by-product of their intellectual attitude, but the benefits! When I listen to Anglo-American philosophers, I always hear this in the background: "Let's keep our feet on the ground." When I listen to French philosophers, it's always like this: "Hey, this idea sounds totally absurd! Let's take it seriously and see where it will lead us."

@FlemGem:
"The causes of poverty are many and varied, but I've never seen a case where the problem was a lack of opportunity or resources."
I come from Scotland and have never been in the USofA, but I cannot believe this statement, especially regarding opportunity.

@Zmaj, and look how successful it has made the French when compared with Anglo-American countries

Yeah, France was the home of Dada, absurd theatre, Camus. I loved it in the old days, the rock and roll days. What's happened now?

Why are we talking to Zmaj?

@redhouse of course active involvement is important, but if I choose not to participate (yeah, I'm busy too) that doesn't mean I'm disqualified from speaking up on social policy. That's all I'm trying to say.

@Timur - I live in a rural, homogenous community that does not face some of the challenges common in urban areas of the USofA that you may be more familiar with. So you can go ahead and believe my statement, and I'll believe your statements about Scotland :-)

Puddle, successful in what sense?

Timur, they still attract the most interesting developments in the arts. For example, Haneke has made his last two or three films in Paris. Why? Because they understand him better than his Austrians.

Lol redhouse, I always have a "fuck off" for you, dear.

Yellowjacket,
I'm not saying you're disqualified. I just know an unusually large number of people who complain about social injustice without suffering from it and/or doing anything other about it than voting for redistribution parties. I'm just not so convinced that there is as much injustice in our democracies as some of the players on the forum suggest. Perhaps this has to do with me being from the other side of the Pond as well.

@Puddle: If I get your irony right, I agree. If you stick your head in the sand, you will become an ostrich.

The UK has much more social injustice than people think

Ok:
@Zmaj: France is still cool creatively (though still a little too arrogant about it).
@FG: I believe anything you want to tell me.
@everyone: Why do you always bitch at each other all the time?

@Soc Diss: Absolutely right, especially since Maggie in the 80's. She was Absolutely Right - as far right as right could be.

Aha, it's astonishing how many people like her =/

gameID=99780

Ah crap, wrong thread. Whoops.

There is plenty of scholarly work on the Victorian holocausts, for example. And yes, people kill people. The Dutch, English, French, and American imperialists (liberal democrats, all) killed millions and millions of people.

How come nationalists like Redhouse never bring up the Indonesians butchered by his government from 1945-1949? You know why there are no numbers? Because the Dutch are busy lecturing others about 'liberal democracy' rather than addressing the horrors they inflict on other people.