"The most depressing thiing is I see a jewish kid, who thinks his religion is completely interchangeable with American protestantism, with a rabbi as a minister, a Synagogue as a church, and the same morals through different stories. Its really sickening, and that is what is causing our culture to die and causes people like your father to become born again Christians."

Nice. All Jews have to believe and behave like you, else they "are causing the culture to die". Nastier than the usual Santa ad hominem du jour."

+100 Putin, and thank you for pointing out Santa's main flaw here...

"Putin--how do YOU feel on the topic?"

On what topic? Thanking god? I mentioned earlier I'm not bothered by it. I think it's rather natural expression of superstition. Other aspects of Christianity are much more offensive.

If you're referring to something else then I'm unclear.

"Nice. All Jews have to believe and behave like you, else they "are causing the culture to die". Nastier than the usual Santa ad hominem du jour."

And if people were interpreting Communism as free market capitalism, youd have problems too.

"+100 Putin, and thank you for pointing out Santa's main flaw here... "

There is no flaw, you are understanding a 3000 year old religion through the lens of fucking martin luther, there is interpretation, and then there is "wrong."

The analogy only works if you believe Judaism and Christianity are opposites. I find that far-fetched. The very fact that Christians use the OT and that the early Christians were Messianic Jews and worshiped in Synagogues for decades after Christ died nullifies your analogy. The fact that Judaism, as you even admit, doesn't have a canon or unified program also means there's a lot of room for interpretation, which also calls into question the legitimacy of you effectively calling Obiwan a race traitor.

ha race traitor, i have never said anything else other than he is confused, and does not want to seek answers to his questions. I dont feel like he is a race traitor, I feel strongly that American Jewish culture is dieing because it is losing all distinctiveness because jews are not interested in what makes them different, not because there are traitors in our midst I see it all the time in the Jewish community as it is in the American religious community as a whole.

Santa, can you sum up the values, beliefs, and practices of Atheist-Jewish culture for us? specifically how they differ from, say, those of a typical observant Jew and a typical non-observant American protestant? Your anger at Obiwan over his perceived assimilation both fascinates and confuses me, and I'd like to have a better understanding of it.

Come to think of it...

You know what?

As much as I hate having other people fight my battles, Putin's already made most of the objections and points to your rambling, insulting post, Santa.

I'll let his answers stand as a token response from me, he's done a good job of representing my points already, so I'll just endorse his post--wow, never thought I'd do that with PUTIN!--and point out a couple little favorites he might have skimmed over:

""In the first place--no, I am NOT related to the protestants on the bus more than a Jew as I am, well, 100% Jewish on both sides going back at least 3 generations...and since genetics and science really doesn't CARE about who I amy be more philosophically aligned with, I'm sorry, I'm not more "related" to protestants than Jews."

Obviously not what i meant, I was obviously talking about your intellectual curiosity."

If THAT'S what you mean...

Are you suggesting, by saying I'm not curious and comparing me, as such, to Protestants, that THEY are less curious--and, in your view, less intelligent religiously--than Jews?

WOW...that's not only remarkably offensive, that might be the first time in my life I'd have to defend Protestants against such racist stereotyping, and from a JEW no less (well, wait...you're not even religious, by your own admission, and yet you are more Jewish than the Jews here, like me, and more inquisitive than the Protestants, AND more adept with Nietzsche, even as you misread the first passage you comment on?

Now THAT'S an impressive display of egotism!)

"If I walked up to you and said Joe Blow who read hamlet a couple times is as authoritative as an Oxford English pProfessor, you would or should tell me to piss off."

That's an improper analogy, as I'm saying anyone has a right to question religion, not that everyone's opinions are equal in every case, as your anaology suggests I mean. Can ANYONE ask a logical question about the Bible? Yes, as that's a general topic, open to anyone. If I'm going to do a report on the eptymology of the Bible, is a rabbi a better source than Joe Blow? Yes, as this is SPECIALIZED knowledge. Correspondingly, anyone can give their opinion on Hamlet, but if I'm doing a paper on the psychology or philosophy of Hamlet, yes, Freud and the denizens of Shakespearean scholars, from Samuel Johnson (whom I hate with a passion) to Harold Bloom (Good, but I really disagree with his take on Macbeth and some of his arguments seem a bit too much like a stretch) to T.S. Eliot (GREAT, love the poet and love his criticism, but I think he's dead wrong calling "Hamlet" an "artistic failure" and calling "Coriolanus," of all the plays, Shakespeare's best tragedy) is needed.

"Why then is obi, who read his stories a couple times, as authoritative as a rabbi who has spent a life in study halls scouring texts? What kind of Bull Shit is that? Oh yeah its Obi koumbaia-my-lord bullshit"

I've just distinguished between general and specifc knowledge--or, by your logic, do I need a Calculus professor to verify that 2+2=4 every time I add it up?--and...

Wow.

I'm "Koumbaia-my-lord"-like?

I'm the guy who advocated for a meritocracy, Nietzsche's Will To Power, and Hobbes' take of human nature.

Not very "koumbaia" like, really...

But then, again, it helps if you read the books and authors I reference before you label their points and mine.

"There is no flaw, you are understanding a 3000 year old religion through the lens of fucking martin luther, there is interpretation, and then there is "wrong.""

And YOU are understanding it, byu your own admission, through the lens of an Atheist.

And there's nothing wrong with being an Atheist...but when you accuse an AGNOSTIC Jew of being wrong in his interpretations, you're in a bit of hot water if you then out yourself as an Atheist...just saying...

Oh--

And thanks for calling my a race traitor.

Though, really, my conception of our race is different than yours...

See, I don't piss on fellow Jews just because they hold a view of Judaism and our people that's different from mine...

Guess that makes me a terrible Jew for not hating other Jews, eh?

1. Judaism has definable practices and beliefs which one chooses to follow or does not. I have chosen not to follow Judaism, but I feel understanding what it is to be a Jew is culturally essential.

2. Being a Jew is not synonymous with being a feminist, communist, democrat, republican, liberal, conservative, Israeli Hawk, American, or Christian. Being a Jew is not what i say it is, but then again this touchy feely bull shit that people can take their current feelings and describe them as "being Jewish" cheapens the religion and the culture. There will be different interpretations of the religion, but those different interpretations should be reached through study and discussion rather than using Judaism as a form of self rationalization

3. It is essential the Jewish people survive, too many people have fought too hard and died to preserve the culture for it to fizzle out due to prosperity and disinterestedness. This is probably the most controversial but I dont apologize for it

And I am not angy at Obiwan for "assimilating,"

Quite frankly, Santa, I've said long ago here that I'm a Jew more than a follower of Judaism.

I am ethnically Jewish, and I honor the holidays and the community and the like...

I care for Exodus.

I am a culture Jew, not a religious one.

And, frankly, I'll thank you not to tell me how I should or should not function in my culture (really, now where the hell is MAPLE? So many good Anti-Jew jokes wasted...what a shame...)

"And thanks for calling my a race traitor.

Though, really, my conception of our race is different than yours...

See, I don't piss on fellow Jews just because they hold a view of Judaism and our people that's different from mine...

Guess that makes me a terrible Jew for not hating other Jews, eh? "

All I ever called you was intellectually lazy, and I will stand by that no matter what is said

"Are you suggesting, by saying I'm not curious and comparing me, as such, to Protestants, that THEY are less curious--and, in your view, less intelligent religiously--than Jews?"

The normal protestants on the bus, compared to traditional jewish inquiry? Without a doubt.

"WOW...that's not only remarkably offensive, that might be the first time in my life I'd have to defend Protestants against such racist stereotyping, and from a JEW no less (well, wait...you're not even religious, by your own admission, and yet you are more Jewish than the Jews here, like me, and more inquisitive than the Protestants, AND more adept with Nietzsche, even as you misread the first passage you comment on?"

I have studied regularly, yet i dont believe in the religion (yet I guarantee I am more "religious" than you still) I still have studied and know enough to tell when someone is way off base.

I never once said i knew anything about Neitzsche, I didnt even know where the passage was from

"That's an improper analogy"

Its a fucking perfect analogy, you said over and over again that your points are as valid as any religious scholar. They arn't you dont know as much so how are they as valid?

"Can ANYONE ask a logical question about the Bible? Yes, as that's a general topic, open to anyone. If I'm going to do a report on the eptymology of the Bible, is a rabbi a better source than Joe Blow?"

Have I EVER disputed that? No! My point throughout the whole thread is that by asking the question to most of us (including me), who are woefully under informed you dont really want the answer, if you did you would consult somebody learned. He wouldnt necessarily give you the answer either, but he'll know where to look.

But you dont need or want a rabbi, you, Joe Blow who read Hamlet and wants to understand the nature of Shakespeare can figure it out yourself (ie. you already have your answer)

Right, it's not race treason, and you're not objecting to assimilation, but you're claiming that it's imperative Jews survive and that Obi doesn't understand what it's like to be a Jew, implying that Obi is committing cultural suicide and that his attitudes threaten the survival of the race. Whatever. Santa's semantic games are as tedious as they are offensive.

Please explain what cultural Jewishness Obi is lacking (besides a lack of questioning/intellectual curiosity or whatever), since you haven't bothered to explain that yet. You've simply mocked Obi for his "touchy feely self-rationalization".

"Right, it's not race treason, and you're not objecting to assimilation, but you're claiming that it's imperative Jews survive and that Obi doesn't understand what it's like to be a Jew, implying that Obi is committing cultural suicide and that his attitudes threaten the survival of the race. Whatever. Santa's semantic games are as tedious as they are offensive."

whatever as usual, to quote the great philosopher Marshall Mathers "I am whatever you say I am"


"Please explain what cultural Jewishness Obi is lacking (besides a lack of questioning/intellectual curiosity or whatever), since you haven't bothered to explain that yet. You've simply mocked Obi for his "touchy feely self-rationalization"."

The inability to culturally identify his own religion (which ties together the culture) the protestant ideal of the individual quest for piety. In truth I dont even deny that Obi is himself not culturally jewish, but the more people feel they can sufficiently be jewish by (for example not necessarily to do with obi) voting democratic and shopping at whole foods, the less salience the religion has and "culturally jewish" will mean being an American having the last name Goldberg. IMO

*should be "from" the American protestant ideal of the individual quest for piety

"1. Judaism has definable practices and beliefs which one chooses to follow or does not"

So having an understanding of Judaism's practices and beliefs makes one Jewish, and following them is not important? Can someone be Jewish in that they have Jewish parents (I get the impression you believe this is important - let me know if I have it wrong) and an understanding of Jewish religious practices, but follow a different religion? Are Messianic Jews still Jewish? Or is only Atheism okay?

"3. It is essential the Jewish people survive, too many people have fought too hard and died to preserve the culture for it to fizzle out due to prosperity and disinterestedness"

So... people should fight and die to preserve a culture whose only characteristic is having knowledge of a belief system one doesn't necessarily have to believe in? I'm more confused now than I was an hour ago. :-/

"So having an understanding of Judaism's practices and beliefs makes one Jewish, and following them is not important?"

When you dont believe in god, how can you truly be religiously Jewish? You cant. But culturally it is important to understand the roots of the culture and what the culture believes

"Can someone be Jewish in that they have Jewish parents (I get the impression you believe this is important - let me know if I have it wrong) and an understanding of Jewish religious practices, but follow a different religion?"

If they follow another religion it probably means they dont identify as jewish, and arn't upholding the culture, so i would say no in that respect, but to tell you the truth i havnt really thought about it

"Are Messianic Jews still Jewish? Or is only Atheism okay"

See above, its an interesting question, but overall I would say if you enter into another religion (which messianic Jews are) then you don't culturally uphold Judaism, and, therefore, arn't, but again tough questions.

"3. It is essential the Jewish people survive, too many people have fought too hard and died to preserve the culture for it to fizzle out due to prosperity and disinterestedness"

people fought and died, not people should fight and die. Would it be a tragedy if Souix culture vanished? Yes, o I have to believe in whatever gods they believed in to think that, No. The fact that my family is jewish only heightens that belief. I don't think its that confusing.

Santa's an odd duck. He rails against people for having a lack of basic understanding about something, but then he proceeds to speak in contradictions that don't make any sense.

"I'm not denying Obi's cultural Jewishness, all I'm saying is that he reminds me of Jews who think voting Democrat and shopping at whole foods is being sufficiently Jewish. And elsewhere I said his attitude cheapens the religion and culture."

It reminds me of a Stewart skit, in which he mocks Fox News for making blatant inflammatory insinuations and then denying they ever suggested such things.

"I'm not saying your mother's a prostitute....all I'm saying is she happens to sleep with people in exchange for money".

"if you enter into another religion (which messianic Jews are) then you don't culturally uphold Judaism"

Which brings me back to my original question - what defines 'culturally Jewish' in a context of atheism? If it is simply knowledge of Jewish tradition and religious practices/beliefs, why would it matter if they follow another religion? Can an atheist who wasn't born Jewish be considered Jewish simply by acquiring this knowledge? Would a marriage to a Jew (observant or not) make a difference?

there is also an element of practicing and teaching the culture which is not present with those in other religions. In effect I hope to pass the culture (and the religion if the charge eventually decides that they believe in a god) and possibly in the future find the religion again if i am convinced there is a god. The problem with those who put Jewish next to their name but know very little about the culture and religion is that there is very little chance the culture will be passed down to the next generation.

Now why would I want to pass on a culture/religion based on a god i said I dont believe in, honestly I ask myself that same question, but I think it comes down to continuing on a line that has gone on for 3000 years, in a sense I think that is worth preserving and in another sense I dont want to be the terminus, rational or not.

Herr is one for you. A man marries a Jewish woman and converts to the faith. Is he Jewish in your reasoning?

Are you asking me or Santa?

If me...

Sure, why not--I don't buy the whole "bloody purity" thing, that you have to be born of a Jewish woman to count. It's an outdated and, if I may say so, slightly elitist and self-important stance...and while I'm usually in favor of elitism, I'm also in favor of my people not totally disappearing from the planet because someone who just happens to have had a Jewish mother turns to people who want to join the community and say "Sorry--members only!"

Being "Jewishg" to me has always been somthing more than a blood status or a religion--it's a cultural thing, a feeling of community and acceptance through shared ideals and experience...I can walk up to someone I've never met before who's Jewish, and, usually, once we both know we're talking to a fellow Jew, the ice breaks all the faster, the Jew jokes fly, and everyone's more at ease and, again, feeling better as a GROUP, even if that group's just two or three folks who bump into each other and happen to be Jews.

I have a friend who immigrated from Latin America, and she joined me one day as I was giving English tutoring to another person who emmigrated from Latin America--

Instant connection, the two hit it off, right away, without ever having met before.

I expect it's the same with any cultural group; if you come from a very Italian family, and you meet up with another Italian, chances are you'll have some similarities in your cultural ideals and, as such, something to connect to one another with.



If someone wants to join the culture, why not? Granted I'd be perturbed if folks did it just to be able to "say" they were Jewish, but if they really think the culture's cool, want to honor Yom Kippur and The Jewish New Year, respect Jewish funeral rites and wedding rites, and all of that...why not? If they genuinely wish to join, let them join...it may be awkard at first, perhaps, but that'll pass in time...and when THEY have kids, they'll be born into a Jewish home, so there you are, purists.

(One more not on the whole "must be born of a Jewish woman" thing:

I remember ANOTHER group who liked to include and exclude people based on their bloodlines and heritage, and if your mother didn't have the right blood, you didn't get in the group--

And if you didn't get in the group, you DID get on the train...and then into the chamber...

Personally, I'd like the Jewish community to steer clear of being exclusionist, given that previous example, and how painfully it pertains to them, to us...)

Obi,

to answer your question about us only thanking God for the good:

My view is that all does come from God, including the allowance of sin (rebellion) and its consequences, but only for a time. Thus various bad things that happen to people are the consequence of human rebellion, which God has allowed to show the result of Satan's viewpoint that God is not fair. Thus with the earth currently under Satan's form of spiritual government and everything is literally headed to hell in a handbasket. While Adam and Eve's choice of rebellion collectively sentenced humanity to hell, God mercifully provided the way out through Jesus, thus showing He is more than fair, he is merciful (He enacted the punishment on His son (fair in that justice was served), so that humanity could be rescued (beyond fair in that He is merciful)). For his followers (and those who have not accepted Him that He is pursuing to save them from rebellion, which is everyone else) He takes a measured approach to allowing bad things to happen, as corrective action for our mistakes, and to get our attention. On the subject of test grades: I got a poor grade in Calc3 because I didn't study that semester and instead played halo... I also got a poor grade in a digital controls course, despite having learned the lesson about studying well, because I needed to learn that people won't always treat me fairly based on the merit of the work I do, and I needed to recognize that whining and complaining about it hurts me more than the person who wronged me. Both of these circumstances I now thank God for, though at the time, I did respond with "Why?", particularly in the second case. On a much more serious note, My mom went through an incredible time of suffering from a pinched nerve in her hip that is not all that uncommon, but is rarely diagnosed properly. She was unable to lay down, sit or even sleep much for the better part of 3 years because of the pain. Ultimately an experimental surgery she had in france corrected most of the problem and she is now 95% pain free, but in the process, she discovered that the suicide rate for people who have this condition is among the highest for any segement of the population, so she has founded a not for profit corporation dedicated to connecting people with the appropriate resources they need to get treatment (since this condition is usually treatable if diagnosed properly) and to train doctors and advance research of treatment options. In addition they have now secured significant funds to begin supporting international (primarily targeting the third world countries, where there is little to no chance that people would even get a diagnosis, let alone treatment). Through her suffering, God allowed her to be able to better the lives of countless others, as opposed to wallowing in self pity. She and I and the many people she has helped can thank God for her suffering because of the good that has come of it. Had she never gotten sick, she would be just an average stay at home mom, whose kids all left for their own lives, worrying about what to do with herself. I can't see the good God brings out of everything, because frankly, I'm not God, but I do believe He is good, and I thank God for correcting me and allowing me to see my self-centeredness and the harm it causes others when he allows something bad to happen because of my actions. On the other hand, I don't believe that bad things only happen because of wrong we do personally (as in the case of my mom), but that we live under a government (satan's rule of the earth) that is bent on destruction of God's creation, including the human race. Thus I seek to find answers from God as to how He wants me to grow and glorify Him in such circumstances (along the lines of Job) and more tangibly, how I can minister to others who are suffering from the same or similar circumstances (which again works against self-centeredness), and seek justice against the evil in the world.

And that brings me to the second point, in answer to your question about taking the Bible as axiomically true. I would fall in this category, as all I have presented thus far is based on my study of the Bible, but let me back you up a step and say that at some point, those of us (or most at least) who take the Bible to be axiomically true, have also at some point not done so. Thus we had to look at claims, examine evidence, talk to people, argue, defend, investigate and ultimately decide what we believed about the documents. We didn't start with that belief. I don't believe you are keeping a truly open mind if you accept input from people who have made a decision that includes life experiences, various elements of faith, and only parts of various religious documents, but reject input from people who have made a decision based on life experiences, various elements of faith, and a single religious document in its entirety.
If hypothetically, you don't care to keep a truly open mind on the subject, then it would be valid to have made a decision that anyone who accepts a single document in its entirety is not worth listening to. Thus you have to make a decision about whether it is valid to consider the possiblity of a single religious document in its entirety as being true.

SC, you've been posting in this thread all throughout shavuot. One of the most fundamental tenants of our culture over the past 3000 years has been to celebrate the 'shalosh regalim.' It is traditional in our culture not to use electricity on chag. If one of your ancestors (with slightly more orthodox leanings) would see the way you celebrated shavuot, then they would feel like they failed to pass down Jewish culture.

Now, what I'm not saying is that you need to be orthodox to be Jewish. But I am saying that you have found it fine to pick-and-choose which elements of Judaism make you culturally Jewish - which is fine by me. But you are also picking-and-choosing that for other people. It's a rather arbitrary line that you've drawn in the sand and I'm sure is quite insulting for people who strongly embrace their Jewish culture but may disagree with some of the tenants that of Judaism that you've laid out.

To you, Obi's Jewishness "cheapens the religion and culture" but I'm sure that to more orthodox Jews, yours does the same.

;)

I realized that last night and saw that my goose was cooked

Thanks, Obi. What is really interesting is how the community has embraced my brother-in-law. He head up the fund-raising for the Jewish Foundation in Akron and, of course, his kids are considered Jewish. Although his son married a non-Jewish girl whose parents came from Vietnam and they celebrate his Jewishness and her Vietnamese (and Christian as it happens) heritage through honoring certain traditions, but he no longer goes to synagogue/temple even on the high holidays. Made for a really cool wedding though. Part Jewish and part Vietnamese.