@BaldOldGuy:

I want to hear more about your plan to eradicate Islam. Please elaborate.

Thank-you TrPrado, I fear asking you to move to my constituancy in time for the next election wouldn't make a great deal of difference to the result.

Out of curiosity, how is Green Party membership holding up in the post election environment? Especially now that the Labour leadership looks like a carbon copy of Green Party activists.

I'm not sure Octavious, I would imagine that many Greens would (re)join the Labour Party or at least vote for them. At the same time I would imagine many are more determined to build a better alternative as they see how many others in Labour Party, particularly at MP level, don't support Jeremy.

@ Octavious: In County Durham our membership is pretty level over the past three months. That is, the surge in new members has levelled off, but there's no sign of huge numbers leaving us to join Labour. Among the fed-up socialists who joined us in the last year or two, I think the general feeling is that they're waiting to see what impact Jeremy really makes - although they are generally cheered by his election as leader.

The Green Party is a progressive enough organisation to realise that if Labour adopts a much more pro-green agenda, that's a *good* thing, even if it loses us a few members, if it has the effect of bringing about positive action on environmental and social issues. What really matters is what Britain's government is doing about important social and environmental challenges - not how many members the Green Party has. The Green Party wasn't founded for the sole purpose of obtaining membership fees from the public, as if that was a goal in itself.

Some people think Gog and Magog, as well as Meshech and Tubal, refer to Russia and Turkey in the biblical prophecies of the end times.

@BaldOldGuy: Let's hear more about that plan to eradicate Islam. Please elaborate.

I'm not gonna let this drop. If you are reckless enough to make that statement, back it up with specifics or else be relegated to the dustbin of irrelevance.

There is no greater threat to civilization than fundamentalism.

Nice to see that UK has Green Party that seems to be a green party, in Mexico the 'Green Party' is everything but 'green' (hard to say it's the worst party, but probably the most cynical)

@Mujus, do you think we are at the end of times?

By the way:
There is no greater threat to civilization than trolls.

The UK Green Party abandoned any hope of being a party designed to unite those interested in environmental issues when it adopted a far left stance on every other issue. I am not really sure what its purpose actually is, but its impact is to take left wing environmentalists out of mainstream politics and isolate them from positions of power. The only upside I can see is that it seems to give them more airtime around elections, but they have managed to waste much of that through the poor public speaking abilities of their leadership.

Octavious - the Green Party and it's forerunners the Ecology Party and People party have always been left wing.

If we look through the prism of success only being electoral success then surely we'd only have two political parties. The presence of other parties can affect change without any representation. One could argue that the poll results of parties that couldn't win like the Greens and UKIP mean that the two larger parties do look to their policies to try and win back that parties supporters.

I'm not sure that we would ever have had a EU referendum without UKIP and I imagine that part of Corbyn's success is based on the Green party's recent showing.

The only Green Party I've ever heard of not being left-wing is Mexico's Green Party. Honestly, if the US Green Party weren't so far left I would be signed up with them. Similarly, I would be Libertarian if they weren't so far right.

I would be Conservative if they weren't right.

True story.

This thread does have a way of getting hijacked over and over, doesn't it? We went from Russia to Islam to Maniac to if only left parties weren't left.

If only Putin weren't so far left, wait that's not it....

What has Corbyn succeeded at? I don't count being the leader of a political party a success. When you look at Hague or Howard or Duncan-Smith, none of their stints as party leader will be remembered among their successes.

I agree that UKIP have played an important role in the referendum. I don't know what the Greens have achieved on the national stage other than siphon votes away from Labour. The reversal of the decision to sell off national forests was achieved not by the Green Party, but by environmentalists within the Conservatives. Or at least environmentalists who are typically Tory voters.

In local government they do more, I'll give them that, but I honestly can't point to anything else.

@ steephie

I made a post about Russians in Syria. No one was interested :p.

Churchill wasn't left either and that worked well. Speaking of Churchill, did you know he said stuff about Islam?
I wonder what Maniac thinks about Islam, if only he weren't so left and a bit more like this bloke called Churchill, who said this thing about Islam..

Vicious circle complete.

"The Conservative party is, in the main, the party of the rich against the poor, of the classes and their dependents against the masses, of the lucky, the wealthy, the happy, and the strong against the left-out and the shut-out millions of the weak and poor."

-Winston Churchill

Jeff " Let's hear more about that plan to eradicate Islam. Please elaborate."
"go forth and make disciples of all nations" It is a generational mission.
First we kill the terrorists and their leaders, then convert the rest to Christianity. Islam is at war with civilization. Churchill had it right.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is clear. Christ teaches forgiveness. Mohamed teaches killing. Killing is the nature of their religion.

The example of Mohamed on forgiveness Sahih Muslim, Book 17: 4206

There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.
(Muslims still do this till this day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOIbgd5qcrg)

The example of Jesus on forgiveness (John 8:1-11)

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

I'm Muslim, by the way.

TrPrado - As a Muslim, you can help me understand this verse from the Koran:
Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

So the Koran gives you three choices in dealing with non-muslims: Kill them, convert them, or have them submit and pay the Jizya.

1. Please explain how a Muslim who follows the Koran can exist in a free society.
2. Please explain how ISIS is doing anything except following the Koran

First off, you do realize how insubstantial the Jizya tax was in the historical caliphates, right? Christians and Jews lived in Muslim societies, paid Jizya as if it were nothing, and many lived prosperous lives, paying less taxes than in most Christian nations, being given the opportunity to move up in society, hold political office, and all sorts. The Jizya is no big deal. Christians and Jews groups of people were well-respected during the Golden Age of Islam. Second, as any given imam outside of the Wahhabis (so I'm talking about the average imam, since an overwhelming majority are extensively critical of the Wahhabis), there are verses that must be understood with historical context. The Word of God is something that is to be interpreted, that's why there are imams. These imams will point out that it requires very specific scenarios to declare war, and killing anyone outside of war is murder, and there are rules of war that must be followed, which protect any non-aggressor more so than the US rules of engagement do.
"1. Please explain how a Muslim who follows the Koran can exist in a free society."
By just living there. Like they do. Like they have for CENTURIES.
"2. Please explain how ISIS is doing anything except following the Koran"
Murder is not following the Qu'ran, for the simplest start.

Now I want you to tell me how "First we kill the terrorists and their leaders, then convert the rest to Christianity" is not the Christian parallel to the very thing you see as wrong.

For me, muslims and christians (and jews) are all "goddists" that are so frequently discussing and willing to kill themselves, and sometimes nongoddists too

Hey BOG,

As an anti-Muslim bigot, could you:
1) Please explain how perusing anti-Muslim websites and copy/pasting cherry-picked ayah and hadith makes you an expert on Islam
2) Please explain why a movement with a few thousand followers that has only been around for a couple years is especially representative of a religion with a billion and a half adherents and fourteen centuries of history.
3) Please explain why, if Jesus preached forgiveness of adulterers, Christians societies have often meted out harsh punishments (including beheading) for adultery throughout history.
4) When you talk about "Sharia Law", are you talking about the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali, or Jafari schools? They all differ quite a bit, and it's important in a discussion like this to have a common point of reference.
5) Explain what an isnad is without looking it up, and tell us whether the hadith you posted has a strong or weak one?
6) Can you explain why, if Muslims form a united front for the subjugation of unbelievers, the handful of Marines you mentioned at Tripoli were assisted by hundreds of Muslim mercenaries?
7) Can you please explain how sending armies to the other side to invade countries that have never attacked America constitutes "Defending yourself against invasion"?

Thanks for your time and attention, I hope your quick and knowledgeable responses can be a springboard for fruitful discussion.

rekt :)

You didn’t really answer the question, so I’ll try again. The jizya was only a part of the verse. If it was only a tax to avoid military service, that would be a minor point. The real issue is being ‘subdued’

The Pact of Umar, an agreement made between the caliph Umar, who ruled the Muslims from 634 to 644, and a Christian community.This Pact became the foundation for Islamic law regarding the treatment of the dhimmis.
The Christian will not:
1. Build “a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk”
2. “Restore any place of worship that needs restoration”;
3. Use such places “for the purpose of enmity against Muslims”;
4. “Allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims”;
5. Imitate the Muslims’ “clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names”;
6. “Ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons”;
7. “Encrypt our stamps in Arabic”
8. “Sell liquor” — Christians in Iraq in the last few years ran afoul of Muslims reasserting this rule;
9. “Teach our children the Qur’an”;
10. “Publicize practices of Shirk” — that is, associating partners with Allah, such as regarding Jesus as Son of God. In other words, Christian and other non-Muslim religious practice will be private, if not downright furtive;
11. Build “crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets” — again, Christian worship must not be public, where Muslims can see it and become annoyed;
12. “Sound the bells in our churches, except discreetly, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets”;
13. “Bury our dead next to Muslim dead”;
14. “Buy servants who were captured by Muslims”;
15. “Invite anyone to Shirk” — that is, proselytize, although the Christians also agree not to:
16. “Prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so.” Thus the Christians can be the objects of proselytizing, but must not engage in it themselves;
17. “Beat any Muslim.”
Meanwhile, the Christians will:
1. Allow Muslims to rest “in our churches whether they come by day or night”;
2. “Open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby”;
3. Provide board and food for “those Muslims who come as guests” for three days;
4. “Respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them” — shades of Jim Crow;
5. “Have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist” — these are so that a Muslim recognizes a non-Muslim as such and doesn’t make the mistake of greeting him with As-salaamu aleikum, “Peace be upon you,” which is the Muslim greeting for a fellow Muslim;
6. “Be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.”

So you never answered my questions, which I will repeat. Your Koran gives you three choices in dealing with non-muslims: Kill them, convert them, or have them submit and pay the Jizya. You seem to be saying you can ignore the parts of the Koran that you don’t want to believe, or ‘interpret’ in a different way.
But my questions were:
1. Please explain how a Muslim who follows the Koran, including the above verse, can exist in a free society. By this I mean follow the Koran as written. You seem to be saying a muslim can co-exist if they ignore the Koran. I’m all for that. Ignoring the Koran is the first step to civilization.
2. Please explain how ISIS is doing anything except following the Koran

And there is a huge difference between ISIS killing Christians because they are Christian, and killing ISIS and other Islamist terrorists. Conversion to Christianity is not done by the sword. Showing Muslims the difference between their religion of death, as in the case of the adulteress being condemned to death by stoning, and the religion of forgiveness that Christ established.

Considering I did give sufficient answers if only you read what I read, I won't answer again except to say that the Pact of Umar is not the Qu'ran.
"Conversion to Christianity is not done by the sword."
1) BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Crusades ring a bell? Spanish Inquisition, or for that matter any inquisition?
2) The most common expanse of conversion to Islam has been peaceful, through merchants telling others along merchant roads about the religion.