@Jamie and everyone else: "so you're saying that the long form *should* be changed to "mathematic" ?"

"Mathematics" was originally the plural of the now obsolete "mathematic," only retained in the adjectival sense. It is now used as a singular and a plural (in the US, at least, though the OED doesn't seem to think it is so isolated). Since I mention the OED, it records the first use of "math" as an abbreviation in 1847, whereas "maths" is not seen until 1911. Since the earlier examples provided of how "math" is made plural, I think it would be overkill to provide more.

Although, while I'm on the OED, "math" is an archaic and regional British term from Old English that means "a mowing." It's apparently where we get "aftermath" from.

@ghug "The ablative case is the best thing that has ever happened to the world."

The instrumental case is the best thing that has ever happened to the world.


@diplomacyraptor "And I especially hate when people decry the death of language,"

You seem to misunderstand language death, then. Language death is when a language is no longer spoken, anywhere, by any one. These happen about once every two weeks, on average. It is a sad event, too, because that is a piece of humanity that has died that we shall never have back.

Language change, on the other hand, is what you described (official words become slang, etc). You're right: change is change. It is neither good nor bad, it just is.

"Grammar nazis," as you called them, do ruin many discussions, however, the conventions of language that we have agreed to as a population (that there is a distinction between "your" and "you're," between "there," "they're," and "their;" between "it's" and "its," etc) are important to follow to communicate well. Whether one can express their thoughts according to these conventions reflects (rightly or wrongly) on their intelligence and education level. Sure, we all screw up sometimes, but getting one's grammar right most of the time is an important value, even on the internet, especially in a game where what you say and how you say it is of utmost importance.

What's weird is the English use Frenchified spellings like colour but abhor Frenchified pronunciation, hence the insistence of pronouncing h's, except of course with words like honor and heir, then suddenly they become silent.

"It's just a tool to be used, a good tool sure"

Try having thoughts without language. "Just a tool", my foot. This is why we should never listen to hard science people about anything except hard sciency things.

I hate to do this as a science guy, but I agree with putin. I think in English and even in an English-like programming language when working on programming issues. Language is far more than how ee communicate. It is how we think.

This thread instantly left the grounds of vocab theory and ventured into the cultural bashing category.

Everyone here knows what the fuck you mean if you say math or maths.

I'm glad Hitler is telling us all to be more culturally sensitive.

"What's weird is the English use Frenchified spellings like colour but abhor Frenchified pronunciation"

A lot of this has to do with "spelling pronunciation," whereby, when dictionaries were first being printed and thus language education was reaching the masses, words are pronounced the way they are spelled. One current word that is caught in flux between "spelling pronunciation" and "colloquial pronunciation" is "often." Some people pronounce the t, others don't.


"Language is far more than how ee communicate. It is how we think."

True that. There was a recent study published (that I cannot find the link to now, maybe it's at my office) showing how bilingual women perceive the same video differently when it is in English or Spanish.

The idea that language is inseparable from our thoughts is a legitimate scientific question, and to my knowledge this is an ongoing debate in linguistics. I am inclined to think that most rational thoughts require the assistance of language - if you don't know a word for something, it's unlikely you'll think about it much. By the same token, being taught a word for something enters that concept into your mind to be used as a shorthand later on during your thoughts.

On the other hand, plainly words refer to concepts that, the first time at least, were thought of before spoken.

Surely this is really simple. It's our language - we invented it - we allowed you, the aussies, canucks, kiwis etc. to use it but at the end of the day it's ours and therefore whatever we say is right, is right - end of story :P

Mathsssssssssssssssss

Los mathos

Fucking arrogant European trash....waste of good thread space. Why don't you just ask why there isn't a single global language? And single global culture? And a single global religion and government? Fucking stupid question. Unbelievably, though, it has brought on an attempt at rational responses by a few, who want to demonstrate their intellectual fortitude...and therefor fail completely by taking the bait...

+1 Jamie if this post was in jest.
- Billions if you are actually seriously making the inquiry...

Every time krellin makes a post a language fairy dies

^ That is discriminatory to all the other fairies dying from the same cause.

No, ulytau, they all die.

@BaG - You bag of wind. Mathematic and all variations theron come from the Greek word μάθημα (máthēma).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics#Etymology

The Brits co-opted another culture's word like they always do. Nothing original in English cause the fucking Brits never had an original thought.

"Nothing original in English cause the fucking Brits never had an original thought."

Except these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Anglo-Saxon_origin

I was just being a prick, like a couple of the Brits were being. But the fact is math/maths/mathematics/mathematical studies... It all comes from the Greek.

Octavious...THANK GOD a language fairy dies and the language can progress. Otherwise we'd all be homos talking like Shakespeare and...chances are...Obi wouldn't be a virgin any more....<ewwww...shudders at the thought....>

@Draug, that's stupid, language is constantly developing. Nothing spoken now is original.

@Putin, those can be traced back to High German, I believe.

Obi would have just been one of the boys playing girls in the theater and probably fancied bugery, so no big deal there. He wouldn't have procreated.

@ghug - No, what is stupid is for the Brits to claim it is their way of speaking or it is worng. Honestly. They didn't invent the word, and even if they did, so it hasd eveolved even further. They need to get out of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and catch up to the rest of us in the 3rd millenium.

@Putin, @ghug, they trace to Proto-Germanic, for the most part. Some are borrowings from indigenous people(s).

@Draugnar, "mathematic" is actually borrowed from French. It is, admittedly, developed from Latin, ultimately borrowed from Greek. "Math," however, is an original English development. It's called "clipping" in linguistic circles.

@Brits, American English is older than modern British English. We sound and speak more like Chaucer and Shakespeare than you do, so nyeh. Damned British and their damned Received Pronunciation. ;)

Aw, now, that's not fair, Draug...I have a goatee, no way I'm playing Ophelia...

I need a role the role of a guy who, according to that great intellectual, Mr. Feeny, "gets on a lot of people's nerves...makes one stupid mistake after another, and for five acts, he NEVER shuts up!"

BORN to be Hamlet...and no bugery going on with Hamlet at all...

He just yells at his mommy, spurns his Kate Winslet girlfriend, and is simply very, very, very, very, VERY good friends with Horatio!

(I'd be that or one of the poor schmucks who gets killed right at the start of some of the more violent histories...no way Shakespeare would leave me alive on stage TOO long! Elizabeth would order him hung before we got to Act 3!)

;)

As for why language is totally and completely awesome...hmm...

I've already employed one of my heroes with an "H" name...let's go for two--

Mr. Higgins?

"Remember that you are a human being, with the divine gift of articulate speech, that your language is the language of SHAKESPEARE and MILTON and THE BIBLE!"

...You had me right up until the end there, Henry. :p

(But seriously, language IS just a tool, in the crudest sense, but I'd argue that saying language is just a tool misses the point, as it isn't the language so much as the words and literature that are so beautiful...

Saying language is just a tool is reductionist, it's like saying "Why do people find music so beautiful, it's just a bunch of sounds, and sounds are just naturally occurring echoes and phenomenon, what's the big deal?

It's not the grammar and language itself...it's the way it's put together by masters of the craft.

By itself, "to," "be," "or," and "not" are just 4 relatively innocuous words...

In the context he uses them in, and with what follows, the WAY Shakespeare puts them together and thus creates "To be or not to be" is what's to be treasured.

It's when it moves beyond the mere nuts and bolts of construction and what's constructed is a work of art, more than the sum of its parts--

"To be or not to be, that is the question."
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
"Ours is essentially a tragic age, so we refuse to take it tragically."
"In the name of GOD, do your duty. In the name of GOD, believe Tom Robinson."
"April is the cruelest month...I will show you fear in a handful of dust..."
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty--that is all ye need know on earth, and all ye need to know."
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two makes four. If that is granted, all else follows."
"I don't want to repeat my innocence. I want the pleasure of losing it again."
"Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven."

And, of course, everyone's favorite--

“They worship a Jew, do you know that, Alex? Their whole big-deal religion is based on worshiping someone who was an established Jew at that time. Now how do you like that for stupidity? How do you like that for pulling the wool over the eyes of the public? Jesus Christ, who they go around telling everybody was God, was actually a Jew! And this fact, that absolutely kills me when I have to think about it, nobody else pays any attention to. That he was a Jew, like you and me, and that they took a Jew and turned him into some kind of God after he is already dead, and then - and this is what can make you absolutely crazy - then the dirty bastards turn around afterwards, and who is the first one on their list to persecute? Who haven't they left their hands off of to murder and to hate for two thousand years? The Jews! Who gave them their beloved Jesus to begin with! I assure you, Alex, you are never going to hear such a mishegoss of mixed-up crap and disgusting nonsense as the Christian religion in your entire life. And that's what these big shots, so-called, believe!”

And kudos to you of you can guess which acclaimed novel THAT is from without guessing...and I swear it's acclaimed and that I didn't just take a pot shot at Christianity...well, not directly, anyway.

Here, another quote from the book to help, to close out our discussion?

“My God! The English language is a form of communication! Conversation isn't just crossfire where you shoot and get shot at! Where you've got to duck for your life and aim to kill! Words aren't only bombs and bullets--no, they're little gifts, containing meanings!”

The Rest is Silence...oh, hell, it never is with me.)

:)

Also--

Because I dislike math and so the less letters I have to use referring to it, the better. :)

(But then, I can only see the nuts and bolts of math, and very poorly at that...it's probably as beautiful as literature or music in its own way to those who can view and do it well.)

@Obi - You do know music is very mathematical, right?

I'm sure someone can correct me on this but I'm pretty sure Anglo-Saxon is older than Old High German.

""It's just a tool to be used, a good tool sure"

Try having thoughts without language. "Just a tool", my foot. This is why we should never listen to hard science people about anything except hard sciency things. "

Lol, this just reminded me of the bit in Anti-Duhring where Engels rips Duhring to shreds over the latter's idea that only thinking without language can lead to abstract and authentic thought.

@Draug:

Yes...but then I try--with an emphasis on "try"--not to presume more than I actually know (and as a result over-cite those areas and those authors and things I really do know well enough to talk about) so I didn't want to come out and make the connection and then have someone tell me I was incorrect or had not characterized musical theory correctly or whatever else...

@Putin:

On that note, something I DO have knowledge on...

It depends how you consider it.

As Wikipedia (mostly, if not over-simplistically) states, Anglo-Saxon is presumed to be marginally older than Old High German...

But its also a branch of the Germanic Languages.

So if you take just the two in isolation, Anglo-Saxon's probably a bit older...
But if taken as part of the linguistic tree it's in...there are older Germanic tongues, and so possibly a close enough precursor to Old High German preceded it.

Either way...both are old, and both are involved with incredibly, incredibly silly epics (Beowulf is a regular laugh riot...
"This monster keeps eating our men every time we go to this one specific building!"
"What should we do!"
"Well, CLEARLY we have to go back! It's not like there are other places to drink!"
"We can't build another one?"
"NO, we've picked our place, damnit, and we need to frequent it until we d--AAAARGH!"
"NOW what do we do???"
"Let's follow his example and keep coming here, I'm sure nothing bad will--AAARGGH!"
"Don't tell me we're going to--"
"Go back, for years and years, with someone being eaten every night until some brave monster-slaying superman comes along to save us from our Lemming-like stupidity? You betcha!"

xD

Best. Comedic Epic. Ever.

Even if it isn't trying to be, lol.)

@Putin, I was incorrect. English branched from Proto-German, not high German.