Screenshots really aren't a big deal; I've used them before for diplomatic reasons. What I haven't done is use them outside of the game. That would bug me a bit.

Okay.

^What Al Swaerengen said: it was my position then and it's my position now...

@Al - You made the statement about my mother's corpse publicly so I will keep it public until you fucking apologize.

And in case you try tp deny other was directed at me, here is a copy and paste everyoje can verify.

" Yeah Draugnar, but it's also not against the rules for me to have sex with your mother"

Am I the only one who noticed that the entire case against screenshots is a bunch of extremely stuck-up arrogant insults directed toward anyone who disagrees with them instead of actually constructing a logical argument against them?

That should be revealing in and of itself. There's nothing "innovative" about the tactic other than how rarely it's used, which is precisely why it has any effect; it's as reliable as copy-pasting, just rarer to see. No one who actually thinks this is okay considers it "hip" or "cool." Your straw man is pathetic and you should feel bad

I think screenshots are bad. They're easy to make if they're real, and relatively quite a lot harder to make (well) if they're not. This is unlike (say) showing somebody your pad in RL diplomacy, which is just exactly as easy as actually writing real orders.

You might say this is just what makes them so good -- you can work hard and misuse them. The thing is, you'd also need to have talent with Photoshop or some such, and this is not supposed to be a game about technical graphics skills.

So, there's an actual argument, PE.

Actually, a convincing one is as easy as saving the HTML source to a file, altering what is typed, then displaying the file.in a web browser with a hidden address bar. Simple really.

Simple until people learn it and start demanding to see the address bar.

^What semck83 said PE.

"...and this is not supposed to be a game about technical graphics skills"

And this has been the argument ever since you asked for a screenshot and let it convince you you were going to be stabbed. Go away and work on your Turkey.

Also easy to fake. save the url to a texy file. After you load the page, copy and paste the URL to the address bar then click off without hitting enter. It will look just like the page unless you know exactly what to look for and I am.not revealing that here.

"And this has been the argument ever since you asked for a screenshot and let it convince you you were going to be stabbed. Go away and work on your Turkey."

Do you choose to make an ass out of yourself regularly or does it just come naturally? As I've explained before, I used the screenshot as a pretext to do what I originally planned to do anyway - continue attacking you, because you were completely untrustworthy, knew it, and pretended like you weren't somehow. You're not adding anything to the discussion.

@semck, first, thanks for an actual argument.

"The thing is, you'd also need to have talent with Photoshop or some such, and this is not supposed to be a game about technical graphics skills."

As Draugnar explained, you don't need any technical graphics skills to fake a screenshot. And I don't possess the skills to see through a fake; nor do I pretend to have them, nor do I ever intend to acquire them for a purpose like this. I just don't trust screenshots on principle. It's literally a visual version of the copy-paste; as one should be wary of fake copy-pastes one should also be wary of fake screenshots, and trust either at your discretion.

Your logic seems like it would call for a ban on copy-pasting anyway. This isn't a game about impersonating others' writing styles, is it?

"It will look just like the page unless you know exactly what to look for and I am.not revealing that here. "

In firefox, for example, there will be a green arrow instead of a star in the address bar.

"Your logic seems like it would call for a ban on copy-pasting anyway. This isn't a game about impersonating others' writing styles, is it? "

Yes. Always has been.

Then what's a screenshot aside from a forgery? I repeat myself, but it is literally a visual copy-paste, akin to saying, in Postal Diplomacy, "here's this letter X sent me."

Asked and answered.

Where?

Why ask for a screenshot if it doesn't change your opinion on anything?

The key argument against it, is that the likelihood of the screen-shot message, with respect to the copy-pasted message (that requires a technical skill that everybody working with a computer has, not someone who bothered to do some photoshopping), of the message not being a forgery is higher, because there is a percentage of people who does fake copy-pasted message, but shrugs at actually photo-shopping and then sending it. There were a lot of people in the last thread discussing this subject (including yourself, apparently, as you asked for a screenshot from one message in a game we played together) who genuinely didn't know forging a screenshot is that easy. These are part of the aforementioned "shrug" percentage.

Anybody who knows a little about statistics - like myself - can verify that.

In other words, a screenshot adds a small amount of credibility to the copy pasted message. Credibility being an important currency in Diplomacy, this invites people to concentrate on forging messages, rather than building *actual* credibility by being a good player. It doesn't hand over the game to the techies, but slightly biases it towards them. That's simply not cool.

Don't send the screenshots, just use copy-paste people.

Amen, redhouse.

TY

I swear it's like he doesn't even read the explanation I actually gave, since this is far from the first time I gave it. I wanted a pretext to attack. I got one with the screenshot. I took it.

And as repeated discussions have made quite clear, forging a screenshot is rather easy, so it should be regarded as having the same amount of credibility as a copy-paste: zero.

Further I'm getting really tired of the constant slights. Can you make a point without implying in some way that people that know how to use screenshots are not good players? Because the notion that using a screenshot automatically means that you concentrate on forging messages instead of being a good player that gets actual credibility is exactly that.

Can you make a point without calling me arrogant?

If its credibility is zero, then why did you respond to one? You could have just used the copy-pasted message you received, that provoked your asking for a screenshot, as pretext.

Do you even read what I said? That was a pretext. I knew it would seem more impactful than c/p, so I asked for the screenshot, and used that as 'evidence' so I could attack you. I was attacking you regardless, but I knew you wouldn't believe I'd attack just because of a c/p.

And I'll stop calling you arrogant when you stop being arrogant. In the meantime I've made my argument without it... repeatedly. In the meantime most of the people arguing your side could take a lesson in humility as well. Notice how the ones talking about using screenshots as being acceptable didn't make any disparaging comments about the playing abilities of those who didn't. That's because this discussion is irrelevant to one's ability as a Diplomacy player. Didn't stop people taking your side from taking uninformed personal shots anyway.

?

I never said the discussion was relevant to one's ability as a Diplomacy player.

@ Preside Eden,

Just to be clear, this is not a debate and I'm comfortable with you disagreeing with me on this. I don't feel the need to build a consensus on this particular issue.

PE, that is exactly what I've been trying to tell them. I strongly agree with the points you showed them, screenshots don't have any more impact then a copy and paste.

This is an interesting issue, and I'm not quite sure where I stand on the issue. On one hand, some people consider it immoral, or even cheating. I dont consider it cheating because it hasn't been deemedd to be disallowed, but I do thinl it's against the spirit of the game. And about morality? This is a game that you are encouraged to lie andd take advantage of whatever you can, so morality is a nonissue. And sure, pictures can be faked as well.

But where do we draw the line? Can we video record our games? This is much harder to fake than a simple screenshot. Sure, its theoretically possible, but it makes the game more dependant on your video editing skill than your diplomacy, and that's definitely against the spirit of the game (also, in before 8 just caused video recording to become a used tactic). Can we use screen shots or video to reveal our identity in anonymous games?

I guess I feel that visual aids should be outlawed, but since they aren't, it cant really be considered inappropriate.

I consider it to be poor form myself, and will take a very dim view of anyone who I encounter using it. To the point that whoever does, unless circumstances dictate otherwise, will soon find themselves experiencing the full force of my attack.

So, in short, I treat it exactly the same as copy and paste.

@achillies, I respect that view, but can't conciliate it with the same people's opposition to banning this practice. If you're all so convinced that it's useless (I'm not) then what's the big deal respecting those who have a problem with it and supporting the proposal to ban / consider this "poor site form".

@Skittles, the fact that the mods make something legal, doesn't mean it's not cheating. If they allow me to look at your press for fun, because maybe I know some of the mods (I don't) then I'd be cheating with mod permission.

@Ocatvious, lol. I think "full force of my attack" has a ring to it.