But leaving the !! is a valid tactic.

@Draugnar: we disagree on that, but I can accept your opinion and will not push you to change it. Let's just say we disagree on that one.

@Draugnar: it is especially annoying in 24+ hours phases, when there is 6-8 hours left, I finalize my orders, because I have to go to sleep, and some other players take advantage of the information somebody is still "!!", but since I'm sleeping I cannot react to that one.

Do you consider that a legal tactic in 24+ hours phases as well?

That's fine. I am.with Eden though in pointing out that the points system already alters the game from the F2F and that the attitudes of players and the way they play have been altered by it. When someone plays for second place in a game where the is no second place, the game has been altered. When someone point farms inba game when there were never any points, the game has been altered. And when someone can chat on retreats and builds when the original rules prohibit that, the game has been altered.

The way to punish nmrs and civil disorder is to kill their country. We need to stop rewarding bad behavior cancelling games when someone draws a country they don't want, or isn't motivated to get orders in because they are losing. Kill the country and move on with the game or draw after they are dead. Either way, punish them with loss of all points. In higher point games this will stop a lot of the bullshit nmrs that I think are done on purpose to get the game cancelled.

@Draug: okay, you and PE are right, that is an alter of the game, and we have to live with it. As we have to live with NMRs. My problem is, not all the participating players have the same information about the NMRing player, because some are sleeping for example, resulting a true imbalance in the game.

@DipperDon:
1) I got your message
2) I could agree with that
3) My problem it alters my orders, and others' depending on who knows someone is going to NMR, and who doesn't know. And even if the rest of the players kill the country, my orders will not change back. That ruins my game, regardles the country is punished or not. that's why I would punish him immidiately with the bet size.

Rok, in a live game would you know if your opponent is going to nmr by not getting his orders in on time? Would you be able to change your orders? I don't think so. You'd have to just deal with what happens, right? In a real war would you know whether your opponent or ally will actually "move"? You just have to deal with it.

There is no perfect solution. I understand and agree with you that we need to curtail nmrs, but the best way is to *not* cancel games. Nmrs and civil disorder have become rampant (far worse than I remember from when I played here two years ago) and I think it is because everyone immediately starts voting to cancel. That is just stupid, because it doesn't punish the offending player. It rewards them and lets them keep doing it over and over, and shows other players they can get away with it too.

I've pointed this out before, but it bears repeating.

Fagnaur exists primarily at Kohlberg's Stage One Pre-conventional Level of Morality with occasional forays into Stage Two.

Here's the Wiki-link for the uninitiated among you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

He is little more than a child.

@DipperDon: what you say makes sense, still some other players usually get too much advantage of an NMR, some do not draw after the NMRed player is defeated, and so on.

I agree, continuing the game can be a good solution, but certainly not the best one.
The thread is about how to punish these, and why morally your solution is certainly a way to handle, it's far from an exact solution which works automatically.

Ig to Maple. Great conversation.
I pledge $99 donation if anyone actually gets RR rating implemented by Sept 1.

"...some other players usually get too much advantage of an NMR..." Rok, that happens as a game progresses even without an NMR, right? And the other countries adjust as they must do to avoid losing. They often stop fighting and join to fight the leader. That same thing can happen in an NMR/CD situation. When it is obvious one or two countries will benefit, the others can and should adjust. Why is that not an obvious approach?

When a player leaves in a face-to-face game, the rules call for the country to go into civil disorder if no replacement is found. The other players are faced with adjusting. So why are we just cancelling. Honestly, I just don't understand how or why players on this site are cancelling all these games just because somebody misses a turn or even when they go cd. It's just enabling and rewarding bad behavior.

I think CDs should be punished, not NMRs. My understanding is that a CD is just two NMRs in a row.
If you start punishing NMRs theres a risk of losing people who want to play the game but who genuinely missed one set of moves e.g. It has happened to me when my internet connection was lost.
Also my understanding is that even after a CD if no-one has taken over your country you can still re-enter the game so maybe CDs should only be punished when the game finishes and/or when their country is taken over by someone else, and all CDs could be automated to appear in the forum with a link so that they could be immediately replaced by a new player at no cost. The pot stays the same and remaining players aren't rushing to Cancel because they can reasonably expect another player to join the game at zero cost.
Then if the new player subsequently CDs they also have to pay the original game stake as punishment.
You could have a situation where a player with only 40 joins a 101point game for free but then CDs it meaning they have to pay 101 leaving them with minus 61, this person would then be excluded from playing and have to reply to the Mods explaining why they joined a game then CD'd. If the Mods accept the reason they reinstate the players points to allow them tp play but maybe with a 7-day delay.
For the person that originally CD'd they should lose the points plus pay a fine equal to the amount of points the game is worth e.g. 101 pts, they will not have their points reinstated to 100 and if this takes them into negative points they also have to re-apply to the Mods to start playing again, possibly with a 7-day delay.
Nigee

@DipperDon: okay, I think you made your point, at least for me surely.

@Indybroughton: I will gladly do it, for free, after 15th of June I will have time for that. I want to do other features as well (auto-disband, auto-build if only army builds are possible on every of your free home SC, etc)

I'm convinced RR is still the best solution, surely on the long term, so I go with that.
Also we can have Facebook, G+, ... connection as well which would probably prevent multiaccounting, re-registering.

RR should be readily implementable by getting Olive and Kestas together as it is complete on vdip already.

I don't get the g+ Facebook thing though. Are you proposing we require players to have one ofbthose accounts? Ask Gannet Media what that requirement did to their viewers. Also, hooking to those services aren't free.

@Draug: if RR is ready, should we just drop an email to kestas asking for integrate it?

about facebook, I wouldn't require players to have one of those account, I would just add it to RR, if you have a confirmed FB/G+ account connected to you webdip user, it increases your RR. In that case you wouldn't and couldn't start new webdip account all the time. But it wouldn't be essential to have.

Oli not Olive. stupidphones not smartphones.

You could still start a new account just not link it. all you would be doing is taking away the fb g+ advantage on second accounts.

yes, it's enough. it worths something. just one more small step having higher RR, not the solution for all the problems.

@DipperDon: "The way to punish nmrs and civil disorder is to kill their country. We need to stop rewarding bad behavior cancelling games when someone draws a country they don't want, or isn't motivated to get orders in because they are losing. Kill the country and move on with the game or draw after they are dead. Either way, punish them with loss of all points. In higher point games this will stop a lot of the bullshit nmrs that I think are done on purpose to get the game cancelled."

I disagree. I don't think such a policy, one of revenge, is ever going to be appropriate for all games. Perhaps someone has extenuating circumstances for which they missed a turn. Whilst it should be generally accepted that small near-defeated countries often NMR or CD even in high-pot or long-phase games, if a large country NMR or CDs in a game, especially before 1904 (when games register for GR), it is extremely unfair and unsportsmanlike to continue the game and allow a few players to grossly benefit. This is especially the case in long-play or high-pot games where gameplay should be clean and without such problems - people should have respect for each other and should not NMR or CD but if this happens, especially in a game you are playing with 6 other people you respect, then it is the right thing to do to cancel and restart under proper circumstances.

"playing with 6 other people you respect"
Well, if I were in a game where I respect the other 6, then the player who NMRs certainly doesn't respect me. That my subjective, personal view/feeling. Personally, I would feel insulted regardless the reason of the NMR, regardless my position. Players put (mostly) their time into each game, and if someone ruins all the achievements they reached, all the effort they put into, all the time they spared then it's all but respect. And I gladly see the player taking responsibility, at least with his bet lost.

Surely, real life overwrites things sometimes, and there are circumstances when I couldn't blame the other one being unable to put in orders. But let's face it 99% of the cases is not the above.

At the moment vDip has 25 open games and 182 active (=14%).
Here we have 123 open and 577 active (=21%)
The numbers where even better some hours ago, as one players went CD in all his games (6). That would give a rate about 10%

Maybe if the 'Open' games were:-
1) Visible on your home page:-
2) Free to enter
More people would replace people that have CD'd their games
Why are we paying extra to replace the CD merchant when they have already paid to enter the game?

@Sarge "I don't think such a policy, one of revenge..." It isn't a policy of revenge, but a practical policy that allows natural consequences.

"...it is extremely unfair and unsportsmanlike to continue the game..." I think this is bullshit. I believe it is unsportsmanlike to nmr and then expect others to bail you out of your situation by voting to cancel. And it is equally unsportsmanlike for other players who are in neutral positions to rob those with good positions of their decent chances because of one nmr (as often happens) or even because of a permanent civil disorder. Life isn't fair. War isn't fair. Two on one attacks aren't fair. But we have to play the hands dealt in life, war, and gaming. Players should deal with what the game throws at them, whether it is a gang-bang, a non-communicative player, or even an nmr. People should just suck it up and keep playing, regardless where they are on the board or who nmrs. Players can and should adjust. Deal with it.

@Sarge: "where gameplay should be clean and without such problems..." Who made this rule? I don't see this in the faq or anywhere else. If that is an expectation for specific games, then maybe it should be made clear before the gamestart. Otherwise, I don't think any such expectation exists. At least not to me. And if it did, doesn't that give any player the opportunity to have an "emergency" or "extenuating circumstance" when the find themselves in a tough situation before 1904? Doesn't such a rule *encourage* nmr's, exactly as I suggested has become a problem on this site?

For the past few months I have - with a few exceptions - only played high-pot or passworded games. As such, I have experienced an extremely low amount of NMRs and CDs. I don't enter into such games expecting NMRs and CDs - especially not games where people have been selected through GR or because everyone knows and respects each other and wants to play a good game. l stand by my comment that in such circumstances there should be a level of sportsmanship and class - ok, it doesn't say this in the rules and you won't find such levels of class in your example of live games but that doesn't mean we should sportsmanship does not exist.

If what you're saying is that you don't care about respect or sportsmanship then I'm surprised and disappointed - but I won't join games with you in the future.

Another problem with the "kill their country" policy is it completely throws off game balance. Turkey NMRs, so Russia and Austria volunteer to kill him off? Well, how very generous of them. I'm sure Germany and England won't have any problem with that system at all.

If you going to refuse to play games with me because we disagree on how the games should be played when there is an nmr, fine. But please, Sarg, stop trying to suggest that your version of sportsmanship is the one and only legitimate view handed down from on high by you, personally, and that if I don't bow down and observe your commandments that I'm unworthy of your company.

Semck, if R/A killed Turkey without the nmr, how is that any different?