@Draugnar The case you describe was caused by faulty ammunition. The discharge itself was intentional. If proper safety rules are followed, a modern firearm will not discharge on its own.

The problem isn't guns or the laws surrounding them, it's Americans. They're a first world bomb of a statistical outlier. No explanation makes sense other than they're idiots that like killing each other.

http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp

This should point you in the right direction Draug, it links to a lot of different stuff, not sure how reliable yet. I don't know where you get 2.5 million crimes stopped, but I'd seriously question that stat.

Simply not aiming at anything you don't want to shoot when the weapon is loaded is sufficient to prevent shooting something by mistake.

Well that explains it. It passed the senate, not the house. Until it passes both it hasn't passed. and until it's signed or the veto overridden, it isn't a law.

haha d31 thats failing to take into account the vast ranges of stupidity among Americans... especially gun-owning ones.

I got the number from santosh's post. I cannot swear to it's accuracy, va;lidity, or even how the number was compiled.

@d31 - so a spring can't break? A pin or tab can have a micro crack and fail?

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you on the whole, I just on principle take exception to anything always being the result of negligence. If one in one hundred trillion instances wasn't negligent, then your statement is false.

And with that said, I also only quoted it because I was using your exact phrase. Something I learned in school. when you steal someone's words, at least put them in quotes. :-)

@d31 - "Simply not aiming at anything you don't want to shoot when the weapon is loaded is sufficient to prevent shooting something by mistake. "

That doesn't take into account the idiot rednecks who think the gun isn't loaded and find out when they pull the trigger and blow their own foot off. It also doesn't take into account the idiots who get their hands on fully automatic weapons and don't realize the kick of the recoil is going to alter the trajectory of the next projectile and on and on and then empty a clip and wonder why they only hit the target with the first two rounds.

In case it isn't obvious, while I may not own a handgun or rifle, I have extensive experience with them from my time in the Corps. I just choose not to own one.

I should have quantified that statement. Any unintended discharge *resulting in injury* is negligent. I concede that not all unintended discharges are negligent.

"idiot rednecks who think the gun isn't loaded"

A firearm is of course always loaded. Not treating it as such I'd call negligence.

OK, you were the one who said some thing to the effect of don't point a loaded weapon at anything you don't want shot. If, by your definition, a firearm is always loaded, then it should have simply been "don't point a weapon at anything you don't want shot" or whatever your words were, sans the "loaded" part.

Oh, and I would agree. Brandishing a weapon as some idiots do, even one you think doesn't have a round in the chamber, is negligent. Period. the only safe weapon is a disassembled or a disabled one. By disabled, I mean fill the barrel with something and remove/grind off the firing pin.

Clearly America is doing something wrong.

Okay, so "loaded firearm" was a tautology. I'm glad we agree on the point I was trying to make at least :p

(I realize now that was not an exact quote of myself. Point still stands)

Yep!

@Geo - This is a surprise? I mean, come on... We don't need automatic assault rifles in our homes, but don't tell the NRA that. And I actually don't think we need anything more than hunting rifles/shotguns in our homes in general and those should be truly locked up, not in some decorative glass front gun case.

But, I don't think we need a complete ban on handguns, just laws that require a demonstrable need and to show a responsible attitude and capability in handling the weapon. I get that some sportsmen like to go to the range and target shoot. But those weapons could be stored at a private club/range and not have to come home.

The only guns in *my* house are an airsoft pellet/BB gun and a paintball gun. The airsoft is good for keeping the groundhog out of the yard when the dog is out playing (the groundhog is big and has a nasty disposition when he can't get to the pears from his favorite pear tree) and I enjoy playing paintball.

What you need, is a government that can agree on something, anything, without taking years and years and spending 400% more of whatever the original idea would have cost whilst simultaneously achieving little to nothing of whatever that idea was.

I don't give a shit about Tettleton Chew's gun-toting, redneck son-of-a-bitch stances, nor could I care to listen to Putin's lily-livered, bleeding-heart liberal, egghead communist bullshit. As far as I'm concerned, America is a cancer on humanity and the only cure is for generations and generations to suffer until that cancer eats itself alive and someone else starts making the rules.

It's just a fucking shame that my country is so anchored to yours.

That didn't sound nearly as harsh before I hit submit. Oh well.

"It's just a fucking shame that my country is so anchored to yours."

It's a shame that Canadians (with a couple exceptions) around here are more concerned with prattling about how evil America is instead of fixing their own damn country. You have a white supremacist as PM who routinely prorogues parliament for no reason & was rewarded with a majority after being caught lying. A PM that continues to embarrass himself and his country on the world stage and was blocked from the UN Security Council for the first time in history after spending quite a lot of time attacking water rights. We have the most progressive American President in decades. Get a fucking grip, Anger Management. The only reason Texan-wannabe Albertans haven't turned your country into a mini-America is because of Quebec, who if the actual Francophobes had their way would have left your joke of a Federation by now.

*Francophobes!

er..Francophones, goddamit.

The 2.5 mil number is as claimed on the link I posted - http://www.rense.com/general76/univ.htm, and has an explanation in the discussion on that page. The link Putin posted subsequently does not counter the 2.5 mil claim as Putin seemed to suggest, they, in fact, agree on their defense use data.

Is it because I called you lily-livered?

No, it's because your Canadian angst got old a long time ago. Aristide says hi, btw. So do the indigenous peoples of South America, who apparently should be heartened by the fact that the mining companies destroying their lands come from a country with a mapleleaf for a flag.

I think Australia has pretty good gun laws. IIRC at most you can get a semi-automatic rimfire weapon with ten or less rounds in a clip.

I read the report, which said that the lion's share of the "self-defense" incidents came from a handful of respondents. 14 respondents reported self-defense uses of firearms in the past 5 years in the '96 survey, accounting for 54 incidents. In 1999 - 29 respondents had self-defense incidents, and reported 92 incidents. In both surveys, victims of gun use exceeded the number of self-defense users by a score of 3:1. So, if as you say the report is "agreeing" with the defense use data (which the report does not say any such thing), then that means there are at least 7.5 million gun victims.

"Clearly America is doing something wrong." - Geofram
"We have the most progressive American President in decades." -Putin33

Out of context, I know, but still amusing! I think we should lock Putin33 and TC in steel cage death match!

@Draug, 'And I actually don't think we need anything more than hunting rifles/shotguns in our homes in general and those should be truly locked up'

i can agree with you there. The fact is i grew up in a country where you can get that at best, well actually you can get whatever your local police superintendent approves. But i don't think i had seen a real gun before travelling to America, where i found them in supermarkets, rather significant cultural difference.

The attitude to guns which make the culture different, not just the number of guns available to the population. I think that should be tackled rather than gun laws. Reduce the number of purchases of gun rather than outright banning them and you will still see a decrease in injury/death.

And to anyone who says increased gun ownership decreases crime. I don't see any data to back this up.