get stuck in... free laptops and ipads available if u clever enough

and if u r a muppet..... then u will smash a window and get caught on cctv

It is the first game of the Premiership season next Saturday and I hear that Tottenham are about to sign a new Italian striker, his name?

GRABATELLY.

"It raises an eyebrow when I hear the people living in these impoverished areas complaining that the political classes never listen to them...you may just want to consider voting for someone else?"

That's a bit of petty point Octavious. Although it is the working classes who suffer most, it is not only the impoverished who the political class have not listened to recently. Either way, simply voting for someone else in our two-, at best, three-party system would hardly change anything.

Also, to Draugnar: "So they are all up in arms that a seriously violent criminal got killed? Good Lord. Over here, that would result in cheering in some neighborhoods where the residents are trying to clean up their streets despite their socio-economic situation."

No. That isn't how it has been taken. The rioters are reacting to decades-long tensions that have existed between working-class areas and local police. The allegation that he was a drug dealer is not an issue for the rioters, it is much more that he is seen as 'one of the working-class lads' attacked by the 'pigs' that are the police. The rioters have then taken advantage of this situation and have been wantonly causing violence and destruction.

Unfortunately though, too many people just want to offer soundbites and regurgitated reactions rather than us actually discussing causes and solutions.

@ sarg

Why do you think it wouldn't change anything? I live in a part of the country that changes hands between parties on a regular basis. When elections come round you can't move for political types asking for your opinion and wanting to know what you want. I feel well listened to. Indeed, it can be hard at times to get them to leave you alone.

But if a community votes for the same party every time no matter what then they deserve to be ignored. The Tories have given up hope of ever winning there, and Labour know full well they can get away with murder and still win the votes of these idiots. We get the leaders we deserve, and if a community can't be arsed even to vote for change why the hell should they expect change to happen?

@Sarg:

Haha...yes...



But we seem to have some conflicting explanations for the riots on the thread here, or at least conflicting ideas as to who's to blame and what the cause of the cause, perhaps, is...

Is this the result of a flaw in England's legal system, economic woes, police not carrying guns over there--and I knew about that, but all the more now, I can't believe it, I'm all for gun control, but these are enforcers of the law, they should be allowed handguns, yes?--problems with the educational systems...then there's that whole "sense of entitlement" bit...

Well, are the riots quelled for the msot part, yes, or is London still burning, so to speak?

Telegraph says they're still going on...

The rioting seems to have susbsided today so far. There hasn't been reports of fresh violence today at all and London was reported as quieter yesterday evening.

Hopefully, this should be the end of this wave.

Yahoo needs to suggest better news sources via their seach engine. :)

@Octavious

I don't like the way you dismiss other human beings as 'idiots'. Simplistic reductivism like that doesn't help.

I'm also disappointed by your ignorance to think that voting for a different party is the only way to bring about change. What about voting for the Party you believe in but voting for different party leadership? Someone may not appreciate the current policies/leaders of the Labour Party but saying they should vote for, say, the Conservatives instead simply because of it is ridiculous.

@Obi: I think written articles have been a bit slow as the situation has been progressing and changing quite quickly. I checked the BBC Website and they haven't posted about the violence dipping, despite reporting it live on the news today.

@ Sarg

I don't know what what political system you think Britain has, but only party members vote for the party leadership. In elections you get to vote for the people the parties select for the position, or independents.

"Someone may not appreciate the current policies/leaders of the Labour Party but saying they should vote for, say, the Conservatives instead simply because of it is ridiculous"

When you don't like the policies and leaders of a party, that is exactly the time you should vote for someone else. That is the point of having a vote!

Also Octavious, please can you say where you live? And if you feel 'well heard', on what issues do you feel your voice has been particularly well heard?

Your quick dismissal of people's disenfranchisement shows how out of touch you might actually be.

As I have already said, popular and large-scale peaceful public protests have been dismissed time and again by the government. All the student protests in recent years, the public sector protests last month, the protests against the Iraq war - to name but a few.

I think your comment that "When elections come round you can't move for political types asking for your opinion and wanting to know what you want." is another good example of your naivety to the problems in our system. They come round asking your opinion and to 'know what you want' at election time exactly because it is an election. Of course politicians are going to make an effort during an election, Octavious, and it would be ridiculous if they didn't. But once they are in power they don't know knock on your door everyday and when millions of people can protest they suddenly care much less. Worse than, manifesto pledges often go out of the window. Of course, this happens in politics but don't think because you feel well listened to during an election that this carries forward through a term of office.

@obi - the situation is calming now. With regards to the causes I can't speak for the rioters but I don't think our legal system has flaws that in anyway caused these riots. If by legal system you mean the courts? Economic woes in themselves haven't caused these riots IMHO but they do serve as a backdrop and it isn't wholey coincidental that riots in the UK tend to occur in times of recession or hard times. As I posted earlier people do feel that they are paying a heavy price for others (bankers) mistakes and this can fuel the fires.

The fact that England's police force is generally unarmed is immaterial to these riots. We have a long tradition of policing by consent and our police do a good job without the need to carry guns. The flash-point for these riots was the killing of a young man by the police although I think it was a trigger point rather than a cause.

Some people would argue that our educational system doesn't have enough tough discipline and that the withdrawal of EMA an allowance previously paid to 16-19 yr olds to help them stay on in college or 6th form could be contributing factors. However the vast majority of young people in the UK for many years haven't resorted to rioting so I think that the discipline arguement could be overstated.

I will never condone violence of any sort, however I can also fully understand that if democracy starts to fail in as much as the party manifestoes are ignored once parties are elected, and people are not listened to then options to participate in democracy deminish and when that happens sometimes venting your feeling can get things done. The government will clamp down and jail people that's for sure and in a months time there will be commissions looking at these inner-city areas and money will be spent finding people jobs, building youth facilities and the like.

@Octavious, I know exactly what political system Britain has - you don't need to attempt to patronise me. It is not difficult to become a party member and make a difference - especially the kind of voters you were complaining about who 'vote for 60 years for the same party'.

What Maniac said is a good continuation of the points I made earlier and answers obi's other questions wisely. As for the police, Maniac is certainly right that our police do a very good job without a fully-armed police force. Our police have always argued that if they arm the entire force, it will only lead to criminals arming themselves more fully and guns flowing more easily into the country. We do have a Firearms Officers who are specially trained to use a firearm but also WHEN to use it - which often seems something that should be more emphasised to American police officers.

"The government will clamp down and jail people that's for sure and in a months time there will be commissions looking at these inner-city areas and money will be spent finding people jobs, building youth facilities and the like."

I only hope this does happen.

@ Sarg

Indeed, it is not difficult at all to become a party member and make a difference. Care to place any bets as to how many of these rioters have bothered to do so? I'm guessing it's a nice round number.

Believe it or not, Sarge, but there are quite a lot of people in this country who feel they are listened to and are quite satisfied that the people they voted for are carrying out their wishes. Just because the government is not doing what you what you in particular want them to do does not mean they don't listen to the people. People protest, and foxhunting is banned, the forests are not sold off, the plans for for changing how the coastguard is structured is altered, the people of Devon get help with their water bills. Just because the government doesn't jump to the tune of every protest doesn't mean that protests don't work.

Who said they're not doing what I want?

One can talk objectively without having to self-reflect, Octaflavious.

Also, if I can answer your questions please could you bother to answer the ones I ask you?

About where I live? Will the South west of England satisfy you?

As far as policies go, there are too many to mention them all. But let's start with the help for water bills in the south west, the effort to reduce the missuse of health and safety laws, increasing the number of NHS dentists in Devon, stopping the garage outside my house opening 24 hours a day (bit of a local issue, that, but important to me), and the move, albeit slow, towards a smaller government. There are plenty of others :)

Thank you all for sharing with us, I myself very much appreciate it.

I am rather interested in how a group could vote Labour for years and feel unrepresented. In the US we have a lot less choice in parties, at least as my weak understanding of the UK party system leads me to believe. But even hear when Republican's felt their leadership wasn't going in the right direction, they formed an internal "Tea Party" and changed the direction. In the UK, couldn't those who feel unrepresented form a new party or similarly work for change in their current party?

How crazy is this...I was watching the news and they actually showed footage of the street where I live in Manchester. Here's the video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14482695

@Alderian – I’ll try to explain why people still feel alienated. Firstly you are correct that Labour ruled for 13 years and their history would suggest that they represent the working class. However many of the people who feel disenfranchised wouldn’t have voted because they see little difference between the main political parties. It is probably true that Labour and the Tories (Conservatives) have moved closer to one another in an effort to gain the middle ground; and therefore more support. Labour moved away from the left abandoned socialism and embraced capitalism under Blair. The Tories had been portrayed previously as a ‘nasty’ party – mildly rascist, definitely homophobic, etc, and had done much to try and address those issues. The differences between the parties had become less stark.

At the same time people have seen that no matter who is in power several things still happen. (1) The gap between the rich and poor grows. (2) The country become closer to Europe without a referendum (3) immigration increases (4) the media has undue influence (5) the state become more inefficient despite promises to cut waste (6) taxes go up (7) fear of crime increase. People also have four big desires in the UK – Stop Immigration – all parties never cut it; Bring back hanging – this is never debated; Bring back Grammar Schools – again never debated; and bring back national service.

For the record I’m against hanging, grammar schools, national service and I wouldn’t limit immigration too much so these are not my personal priorities; but again and again those concerns are never addressed by any party.

Add to all of this the debacle over the expenses scandal; the unelected House of Lords; the cost of the Royal Family; the old school tie system (most of the Cabinet come from 1 school) and you can see how people can become disenfranchised. I think others have also mentioned that there was a huge anti-Iraq movement in England that was ignored by the Government.

With regards to changing the system along the lines of the Tea Party for example – this is extremely difficult. Creating fractions in either of the main parties would lead to their downfall at election time. If for example the pro-europe and euro-sceptic parts of the Tory party went their own way their vote would be split and neither party could get elected. We operate a first past the post constituency democracy which favours large united parties.

Some new parties have formed in the UK in recent (last 20) years. UKIP, for example, campaigns for a withdrawal from the EU – but they have yet to win a seat at a general election despite gaining huge support in European elections. The problem is that many people who want to vote UKIP know that if they do UKIP won’t get elected but their second preference (Tory) could lose a seat to Labour and the potential UKIP voters would sooner have a Tory than Labour government. We held a referendum recently to change from first past the Post (FPTP) to alternative vote (AV) elections to better represent peoples opinions but the proposal was defeated on a low turnout.

Hope some of that helps.

I think "hanging" means something different in the UK than it does in the US...

@Sargmacher - nice street! You have to wonder about the police's attitude sometimes. I don't know the context of the perported beating of a 'rioter' but the police know that these riots began because people thought that the police had acted unreasonably in shooting Mark Duggan in the back of a taxi (Mark Duggan did not fire at the police first). To beat anyone can only inflame the situation and put their collegue at further risk.

@abgemacht - what does hanging mean in the US? Am I missing something?