Best college job I ever had was working at Waldenbooks and being in charge of the Religion and Philosophy section. I read everything from Tao and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance to Lavey's Satanic Bible (interesting concepts on being "of the flesh" and "self") to Carlos Castenada (wild fucking drug trips!). I even read some Wicca material which I liked over all as it is oriented around doing good, not harm.

Private prayer is for your requests. Praying out loud for all the world to hear like Billy Graham does (and I actually do respect him, but disagree on this point) is counter to Jesus' commandment regarding prayer. But thanking and praising God publicly is right in line. After all, Jesus told the pharisees that if his followers were to cease their noise, the rocks and stones would sing.

@Draugnar, so basically, it's "please" in private and "thank you" in public... seems consistent with basic good manners, actually.

"Best college job I ever had was working at Waldenbooks and being in charge of the Religion and Philosophy section. I read everything from Tao and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance to Lavey's Satanic Bible (interesting concepts on being "of the flesh" and "self") to Carlos Castenada (wild fucking drug trips!). I even read some Wicca material which I liked over all as it is oriented around doing good, not harm."

obiwan must be foaming with envy : )

^
That DOES sound like an awesome job...though I don't think I'd ever waste time on the Satanic Bible (no one's a Satanist here, yes? No one's offended? I mean, if I DARED offend a SATANIST...I might get some cryptic response about a curse or some bullshit or thier coming to get me, and then nothing...and how terrifying is THAT?)

@post:
mainly because everything can be credited back to God. Sure, you studied well for the test, but who gave you the ability to study? Who gave you parents who would raise you with the work-ethic to study? Who had you born with your parents so that you could go to school and be able to even read the questions? Who arranged it so that history would turn out in such a way that tests, higher education, education at all, writing systems, the study of whatever subject the test is on, and your ability to have access to higher education, that all these things would come about? Who caused you to exist in the first place so that you could do anything, let alone taking a test?

So, that's the logic behind why Christians like doing the thank-God-and-Jesus-for-everything thing all the time. However, it's not commanded to do it out-loud. It actually works better in private or in private with other people benefiting in the same way as you. If someone is in a restaurant, and just starts praying really loudly so that everyone can hear, that's something else and something bad. The goal of thanking God is to thank Him, not to make yourself look good in the process or gain heavenly brownie points as some people mistakenly believe.

@baumhauer and everyone who answered in the fashion he did:

If that's the case, though...

Well, then you can trace everything good back to God, yes?

OK...

Why no "I KNOW He's always with me...thank you, Lord!" when you get an F rather than an A?

Or when your parents die in front of you Bruce Wayne-style?

Or when other such bad things happen?

Just looking for some consistency here...

If God allows for all and God is necessarily good, then it would seem to follow that any action he allows is good...

Except we have F's on tests and car crashes and shootings and all that?

If THAT is God, why not ask him?
And if it's Free Will...well we said everything traces back to God, and he gave you free will, or the people who wronged you free will, so it's still by his "grace" then, it would seem, that this misfortune occured...
Finally, if God's supposed to have a Perfect Plan...did he really plan for you to succeed in your Bilogy Class billions of years ago?

It just seems odd to me to praise God for everything good, but I say "goddamnit!" in frustration when I stub my toe or do badly on a test or the Mets lose--a common occurance--and my converted-to-Christianity father gets enraged that I've dared use God's name (which I'm afraid I don't get if we're supposed to use his name for all action that he allows as if he allows it it's good...besides which, "God" and "damn" are in the Bible, and quite often, God DOES damn "it," whatever "it' is, so it seems like a perfectly valid term...if I use his name in praise, why not in frustration, when I wish he'd fix something? It's just the consistency of the rules I don't quite get...)

well there is a commandment not to use the lords name in vain...

And I believe you want to read the book of Job for your answer. How could your pitiful human intellect question gods overall plan, instead you thank him/it when things go right

frankly i dont believe in god nor really in religion, but there is something more aattractive to me when someone attributes his or her accomplishments to something greater rather treating themselves like a god

and finally, obi for someone who has stated his disinterestedness with religion you sure have a question, why don't you visit a learned rabbi with these questions, they have been asked and discussed for millenia by people much more familiar with the source material with those on here. If you dont, the only remaining question is what are you afraid of?

For someone who is not religious you sure do defend religion a lot.

Wo answer those questions/responses one by one:

-Yes, I know there's a commandment...which never made sense to me, really--I mean, you have "I am the Lord, thy God" and "Thou Shalt Worship No Other Gods Before Me." THat's not enough to boost God's ego, to assure him we'll worship him? (And while I'M not almighty, infalliable God...maybe in place of the "Name in Vain" one we could've had, say, "Thou Shalt not Enslave Others," or, to be perfectly clear and genuine from the start, without waiting for Jesus and Confucius to say it, "Thou Shalt Treat Others As Thou Would'st Wish To Be Treated Thyself?" Just saying...I think THAT as a commandment would've done a heck of a lot more good than the "Name in Vain" one...

-I've read Job. To be honest...I wasn't impressed...

-Why? If you don't believe in God, as you say you don't, then why not laud mankind, if he's the highest form--that we know of--that actually exists? If you believed in God I could at least understand, maybe not totally agree, but understand why you'd want humility before a Greater Power; in the absence of one, as you have in your life, I suppose, why not take credit for your accomplishments and attribute them to yourself and your friends? The Greeks and Romans had no problem attributing great things to their heroes and real-world figures...why can't we do the same today?

-To be honest--because I'm not INTERESTED in a rabbi's opinion. Or a minister's or priests' (though riding the bus I've heard one or two of them anyway--not very impressed, but then it could be argued that some old Asian who comes onto the bus, refuses to get off before he plugs his sermon and his own church, and has his other Asian attendants hand out brochures even when you say you don't care or want to care and that it's not a very Christian thing to do to impose yourself and make everyone late for their appointments and me late for school--probably not the best example of Christianity, I'm sure. But the truth is, I don't ask them, intentionally, because I don't want a doctrine-fueled answer, that's why I ask individual people on the bus, or at school, or folks here--to get not just a sample, but hopefully to talk to people that won't take religious doctrine as a right and truh in and of itself, no questions asked, and have read more than the Bible, and so can give me a unique, informed opinion, not a dogmatic "Jesus loves you because *insert a reason* and He died for our sins and so *sinsert a reason for me to convert.*"

I don't respect THAT.
I DO respect an opinion that's yours, however, and not the official doctrine of any book, building, or sect.

In "Thus Spoke Zarathustra," the title prophet, Zarathustra, eventually tells all his disciples to go away, that they can follow him no longer, and that they have to strike out on their own, form their own ideas--when one asks why, Zarathustra responds that if he doesn't know by now, he has gained nothing from Zarathusra's teaching.

I think that's a good idea, and I like that n Nietzsche and in the many books I read before and the books I've read since--and in real life.

Form your own opinions--I disagree with Nietzsche, and still I agree with other parts of his work, but, again, one of the most valuable things he sets in writing:

DISAGREE WITH ME. THINK FOR YOURSELF.

I'd rather be told THAT than have a rabbi or minister explain THEIR rendition of the Meaning of Life to me that THEY learned from a guy that learned it from someone else that learned it from someone else that learned it from someone else... ;)

"For someone who is not religious you sure do defend religion a lot."

I point out errors in judgement, I think it especially arrogant and ignorant that people feel, with limited or no background, feel they can criticize tenants of religion they hardly understand if they understand at all. There has been thousands of years of religious discussion and debate, if you are really interested you would tap into that. Instead, you are trying to understand Shakespeare from a comic book version of Hamlet.

Now for Obi

"-Yes, I know there's a commandment...which never made sense to me, really--I mean, you have "I am the Lord, thy God" and "Thou Shalt Worship No Other Gods Before Me." THat's not enough to boost God's ego, to assure him we'll worship him? (And while I'M not almighty, infalliable God...maybe in place of the "Name in Vain" one we could've had, say, "Thou Shalt not Enslave Others," or, to be perfectly clear and genuine from the start, without waiting for Jesus and Confucius to say it, "Thou Shalt Treat Others As Thou Would'st Wish To Be Treated Thyself?" Just saying...I think THAT as a commandment would've done a heck of a lot more good than the "Name in Vain" one..."

God doesnt have a fucking Ego, you understand religion at a 5 year olds level and pass it off as "thinking for yourself" you dont know what to think, because you have not studied it. You arn't thinking for yourself, you are working off of stereotypes acquired through osmosis.

"-I've read Job. To be honest...I wasn't impressed..."

Really, I have heard several literary scholars have said it was the most masterful of the books in the bible *shrugs*

"To be honest--because I'm not INTERESTED in a rabbi's opinion. Or a minister's or priests' "

How do you know? you havnt tried. You think a rabbi will give you a doctrine fueled answer? What doctrine? Do you even know what Jewish law is based on and how it was created? Thousands of arguments, one side of which is widely accepted but other sides which are tolerated and respected (though some which are not).

In effect you are more related to those mindless protestants on the bus than you are to your Jewish Heritage. Jewish Heritage demands that you question, argue and study your religion. Meanwhile protestant christianity, and your stilted intellectual laziness (I form my own opinions from stereotypes and quick readings of source material) suggest that the individual's opinion, no matter how ill informed, is as valid and insightful as a religious scholar. The question you have to ask is what makes you qualified even to have an opinion when you have not studied it?

"In "Thus Spoke Zarathustra," the title prophet, Zarathustra, eventually tells all his disciples to go away, that they can follow him no longer, and that they have to strike out on their own, form their own ideas--when one asks why, Zarathustra responds that if he doesn't know by now, he has gained nothing from Zarathusra's teaching."

Yes after his followers studied with him for years am I right? How long have you studied? A day?

I am not telling you to accept a rabbis opinion, I have studied, and I found I did not buy their worldview. I am telling you if you are really interested, you would study with someone who knows the material, rather than be intellectually lazy and pretend that constitutes "thinking for yourself"

'"For someone who is not religious you sure do defend religion a lot."

I point out errors in judgement, I think it especially arrogant and ignorant that people feel, with limited or no background, feel they can criticize tenants of religion they hardly understand if they understand at all. There has been thousands of years of religious discussion and debate, if you are really interested you would tap into that. Instead, you are trying to understand Shakespeare from a comic book version of Hamlet.'

By the way i see you in the same struggle with those that attack communism using a elementary school understanding, I dont think this is that foreign to you

obiwan, I actually agree with one of your points. I think we Christians tend to inconsistently credit the good to God and not the bad. When something amazing and unlikely happens, we say (well, I don't), "That must have been God," as though that's a coherent thing to say of an omnipotent being. I quite agree. The good as well as the bad fits into God's plan and is allowed or even chosen by Him, and we would do well to remember it and not speak inconsistently.
That doesn't mean we have to THANK Him for it, though, or that it makes no sense to thank Him when things go in ways we are particularly glad of now.

aand by the way "taking gods name in vain" does not just relate to the saying "God Damnit" many people also say taking gods name in vain includes the spurious invocation of god, for example making vows or stating that god won you a football game

Well it goes a bit beyond criticizing "elementary school understandings" of religion. You even go so far as to admire those who give credit to god rather than their own efforts or the efforts of other human beings, equating the latter to be egomaniacal "they think they're gods", etc.

I have to ask, since you seem to believe, despite your professed atheism, that you have studied enough to be an atheist - how long is sufficient study? And what makes you so certain that nobody has studied enough to be an atheist except you?

The difference with the Marxism example is that nobody takes classes on Marxism. Nobody goes to Sunday school studying Capital or Origins of the Family. Their caricatures can be exposed for being ridiculous with a single paragraph from what Marx or Lenin actually wrote. On the other hand, I was forced to go to CCD until I was 16 years old. But my study isn't good enough. So I ask, what is enough study for you?

"Well it goes a bit beyond criticizing "elementary school understandings" of religion. You even go so far as to admire those who give credit to god rather than their own efforts or the efforts of other human beings, equating the latter to be egomaniacal "they think they're gods", etc."

Dont see whats wrong with that


"I have to ask, since you seem to believe, despite your professed atheism, that you have studied enough to be an atheist - how long is sufficient study? And what makes you so certain that nobody has studied enough to be an atheist except you?"

Im sure Obi and you havnt, because you both have mentioned that you have not, I have studied weekly or more since my second year of college (I dont count jewish sunday school in my calculus as the religion the pervade there at least in the case of judaism, is watered down morality training)
Enough study for me is prolonged study as an adult with another learned adult as a guide.

And finally, I dont think study is required to be an Athiest, I think study is required to understand the concepts that you (or whoever) is bashing. You dont need to believe in god, but if you come in and bash a religious concept that has been discussed for thousands of years, I think its fair that some knowledge of that discussion is warrented.

And

@Santa Clausowitz:

First--how did you take Putin's comment and twist that around to his trying to understand Hamlet from a comic book?

And I'd respond to your responses, but I can do that thusly, completely, for all of them, all at once:

You accuse others of not understand the material and having a small intellect.

You offer nothing to back that assertion up.

As a result, I have no reason to take your name-calling to heart...sorry, but when you accuse someone of working with the mentality of a 5-year old, and working off of stereotypes, its best not to do the same yourself.

All your posts boil down to "You're wrong, you're infantile, and you haven't studied."

God doesn't have an Ego? Why? GIVE ME A REASON. He has 3 commandments just relationg to how you should worship and think about HIM, that seems like something of an ego--which is not a BAD thing, by the way, as "ego" doesn't have to carry the negative connotation you decided to assign it, as technically if God has a will of his own he has an ego and a sense of identity, as an ego/sense of indentity and individual wants is what makes up at least part of an ego, but anyway--but you say he doesn't.

Fine. Give me a reason to believe you.

You don't--just call me a 5-year old and move on. BRILLIANT PERSUASIVE TACTIC!

For Job, you just say many scholars seem to like it. Great. So should I? Why? Because they did? When I give a reason why we should value Shakespeare, I give a reason why I think the actual WORK is worth something, I don't give an ad Populem statement and say "Well, EVERYONE loves Shakes, so he must be awesome!"

So, one of your responses is a logical fallacy, and another your calling someone a 5-year old while not bothering to say why and going on your own self-important way...doing pretty well so far...

And then we come to the rabbi one...and where do I start...

In the first place--no, I am NOT related to the protestants on the bus more than a Jew as I am, well, 100% Jewish on both sides going back at least 3 generations...and since genetics and science really doesn't CARE about who I amy be more philosophically aligned with, I'm sorry, I'm not more "related" to protestants than Jews.

In the second place--I beleive I've said here NUMEROUS TIMES that I've read the OT, ie, the book for my religion? And questioned it? And discussed it for years? Seems like I've studied my heritage and native relgion...albeit not as intensive as a Hacidic, but if you mean that I must study it THAT intensively before I can comment or argue it 1. I find that mildly offensive, that you seem to have this stereotypical view of Judaism--how ironic, for all your charges of MY holding stereotypes--from the Hacidic, Orthodox branch. I hate to break it to you, but, just as the Catholics have different understandings and methods of learning Christianity than Protestants or Anglicans or Baptists or Mormons or anyone else, there are different branches of Judaism, and different ways WE learn--I was raised a Reform Jew, and, as such, I don't feel the need to study my religion in the manner you suggest, alongside rabbis, in order to comment on it, leaving aside the fact that really you don't need, I'd say, ANY guidance to comment on ANY religion, ESPECIALLY the Judeo-Christian ones.

To quote the Indian Red Jacket in his speech before the US Congress:

"You all have the same Book, you all can read the book--so why do you disagree?"

The answer being...

1. There's still no set answer, regardless of what one sect or another will say, and...
2. ANYONE can question religious texts, regardless of how much they've studied within the religion.

Moving on...

Why is "Jewish Law" relevant here? Again, I hate to break it to you, but this is NOT Fiddler on the Roof, and you do not have to know every inch of the Torah or Talmud to speak about Judaism, not to mention the fact that I AM NOT PRETENDING TO BE A JEWISH SCHOLAR.

Unless you are suggesting you MUST be a Jewish scholar to discuss Judaism--and I've already pointed out why I think THAT'S a load of trash for an argument--then I'd ask why I really NEED to certify myself as one and know Jewish Laws to ask a fairly simple question such as "why does everyone praise God?" or, as I just asked, "Why not have a commandment agaisnt slavery?"

Both seem common sense questions, so why can't I ask them?

And I find it remarkable that you find time to njot only insult and stereotype JEWS, but Protestants as well, saying that THEY all value the opinion of the individual as much as the religious scholar as if that were a bad thing, and as if that were uniformly true.

WELL DONE! You've managed to stereotype my people, Protestants, AND give a self-serving argument for why the religious scholars should have a voice in these matters and not the every day person asking a simple question.

BRAVO! Sloppiness worthy of our dear old friend Miro Klose!

But you don't stop THERE! No, no!

You continue on and misread the actual text of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" while complaining that *I* only skim the material!

For your information, Santa, Zarathustra is agaisnt study PERIOD--he had disciples, as I said, but they didn't study from him dogmatically so much as essentially follow him around and ask questions, which he would then answer and they would debate for a while; Zarathustra's asking them to leave is just as much to free HIM from THEIR thoughts as it is the other way around, it's to spread the group out, get them to question others besides just Zarathustra nd themselves, and thus form new opinions.

Well done, missing all of that!

I suggest you READ a book next time before you accuse another of not doing so.

Putin--how do YOU feel on the topic?

(As much as I disagree with you, at least YOU can generally give a valid point and not miss the point of others' speeches entirely or misread books completely...'

Really, Santa, READ the book before you tell someone they're wrong on it...or that someone will nail you.

'Tis a lesson I've learned in my own time and my own screw ups here, and I now pass it onto you.)

Out of curiosity, since YOU daid you're not religious, anyway, Santa...

Then, by your own logic, what place do you ahve to question MY religious inquiry, as you're neither a scholar nor qualified by your own standards.

(Oh, and to get back to the topic, Lord, if you exist and you're reading this, 1. Why? I'd think you could get better reading material up there, and 2. I hope this has been entertaining...) ;)

@obi--you can't stereotype ministers or rabbis. American Religion is the one and only truly free market--anyone can stand up and say they're a minister or rabbi, whether or not they have any credentials. But in the interest of providing you with some basic education, ministers and rabbis in many denominations are required to to 3-4 years of post-graduate study in order to be recognized. In that time we do a LOT more than "just read the Bible" and get "doctrine-fueled answers." I myself received my ministerial training at the University of Chicago, and I found that the Political Science and Economics departments were more dogmatic than the Divinity School.

If you didn't like Job, I'd suggest that you read "On Job" by Gustavo Gutierrez. Gutierrez is a Catholic priest from Peru who has spent his whole life working with extremely poor and oppressed people. His thesis is this: since Job is about suffering, you'll get a better understanding of it by listening to people who are actually suffering, rather than comfortable academics in wealthy countries. It's worth reading--not simple, but valuable.

"First--how did you take Putin's comment and twist that around to his trying to understand Hamlet from a comic book?"

Its all a matter of scale, Trying to understand a religion from a childs religious school is like uderstanding hamlet from a comic book. Let me add in a French comic book version to make it more accurate.



"You accuse others of not understand the material and having a small intellect."

I accuse you of not truely seeking answers and being intellectually lazy. How can I accuse you of not knowing the material, you have admitted that you dont.

"In the first place--no, I am NOT related to the protestants on the bus more than a Jew as I am, well, 100% Jewish on both sides going back at least 3 generations...and since genetics and science really doesn't CARE about who I amy be more philosophically aligned with, I'm sorry, I'm not more "related" to protestants than Jews."

Obviously not what i meant, I was obviously talking about your intellectual curiosity.

"1. There's still no set answer, regardless of what one sect or another will say, and...
2. ANYONE can question religious texts, regardless of how much they've studied within the religion."

You have just layed out the tennants of judaism, congrats Obi, now the difference is you believe that because you have questions that religion is bull shit, judaism teaches that if you have questions you should legitimately try to find the answers through study. Again, intellectual laziness

"
Why is "Jewish Law" relevant here? Again, I hate to break it to you, but this is NOT Fiddler on the Roof, and you do not have to know every inch of the Torah or Talmud to speak about Judaism, not to mention the fact that I AM NOT PRETENDING TO BE A JEWISH SCHOLAR."

No but you are pretending to want answers and to understand when you obviously dont

"Unless you are suggesting you MUST be a Jewish scholar to discuss Judaism--and I've already pointed out why I think THAT'S a load of trash for an argument--then I'd ask why I really NEED to certify myself as one and know Jewish Laws to ask a fairly simple question such as "why does everyone praise God?" or, as I just asked, "Why not have a commandment agaisnt slavery?""

You dont, but by refusing to consult someone who has studied the same questions throught his whole life, you show you arn't serious about your questions. Your point about slavery just shows exactly what you want to ask "why didnt the writer of the bible write it exactly like I would?"


"And I find it remarkable that you find time to njot only insult and stereotype JEWS, but Protestants as well, saying that THEY all value the opinion of the individual as much as the religious scholar as if that were a bad thing, and as if that were uniformly true."

It is a very bad thing, the only reason you dont think so is because you see your religion through the lens of the American great Awakening rather than through a quest for knowledge. If I walked up to you and said Joe Blow who read hamlet a couple times is as authoritative as an Oxford English pProfessor, you would or should tell me to piss off. Why then is obi, who read his stories a couple times, as authoritative as a rabbi who has spent a life in study halls scouring texts? What kind of Bull Shit is that? Oh yeah its Obi koumbaia-my-lord bullshit

"WELL DONE! You've managed to stereotype my people, Protestants, AND give a self-serving argument for why the religious scholars should have a voice in these matters and not the every day person asking a simple question."

I think I made a very valid point that anyone with half a brain would agree with

"For your information, Santa, Zarathustra is agaisnt study PERIOD--he had disciples, as I said, but they didn't study from him dogmatically so much as essentially follow him around and ask questions, which he would then answer and they would debate for a while; Zarathustra's asking them to leave is just as much to free HIM from THEIR thoughts as it is the other way around, it's to spread the group out, get them to question others besides just Zarathustra nd themselves, and thus form new opinions.

Well done, missing all of that!"

Sounds stupid, and I never claimed to know what it was, i made a wrong assumption which i labled as an assumption

The most depressing thiing is I see a jewish kid, who thinks his religion is completely interchangeable with American protestantism, with a rabbi as a minister, a Synagogue as a church, and the same morals through different stories. Its really sickening, and that is what is causing our culture to die and causes people like your father to become born again Christians.

"Don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows". - Bob Dylan

"Dont see whats wrong with that"

Wrong or not wrong, you're not just ridiculing skeptics who you think are ignorantly bashing religion. You're going out of your way to defend their practices, and ridiculing people who don't do them for "thinking that their gods".

You have this tendency to profess one belief but make a lot of statements which seem to indicate you believe the opposite. Maybe it's your way of creating traps for people so you can accuse them of misinterpreting you. I don't know and I don't care.

"Im sure Obi and you havnt, because you both have mentioned that you have not, I have studied weekly or more since my second year of college (I dont count jewish sunday school in my calculus as the religion the pervade there at least in the case of judaism, is watered down morality training)
Enough study for me is prolonged study as an adult with another learned adult as a guide."

Why do you study so much with religious guides if you're not religious? I've not studied formally in any academic way, but I read stuff on my own and attend/listen to discussions by biblical scholars who disagree. Apparently that's not good enough because I, as an atheist, need a committed religious scholar to guide me in order to understand anything.

"I think study is required to understand the concepts that you (or whoever) is bashing."

What concepts are people not understanding? You like to constantly invoke your expertise but you don't bother to either point out what people are misinterpreting or explain the proper definition of a concept very well.

I know it's a fad here on webdip to try and shut down discussion by invoking expertise and constantly talking about how "smarter people than you have written about this". Keep appealing to authority, keep up the ad hominem attacks, and keep refusing to engage.

Holy crap, Santa.

"The most depressing thiing is I see a jewish kid, who thinks his religion is completely interchangeable with American protestantism, with a rabbi as a minister, a Synagogue as a church, and the same morals through different stories. Its really sickening, and that is what is causing our culture to die and causes people like your father to become born again Christians."

Nice. All Jews have to believe and behave like you, else they "are causing the culture to die". Nastier than the usual Santa ad hominem du jour.

Love one another, folks. :-P