@JEccles:
Oh okay. nevermind then. I have read "Lamb of God" more recently than the Bible (great book btw, Lamb of God) It's basically Jesus' adolescent years as told by his best friend Biff.

@abge: lolololol

Yes, but this isn't random people, this is his own most ardent followers who don't believe.

Plus, they have good reason not to believe because the Book of Deuteronomy warns against false prophets claiming to do magic tricks to test their faith.

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

"To think He could just magically make everyone believe and not give them that choice to follow would be absurd and take all faith out of the religion in the first place."

But Jesus clearly expresses frustration that people aren't listening to what he's saying, in multiple places. So why would he be so frustrated if he didn't want to make as many people as possible believe?

@abgemacht...John 19: 31-37

@Putin...why are politicians frustrated when people don't vote for them? because everyone has a message they are trying to get people to listen to, and when people don't listen or believe they get frustrated. Jesus had human emotions just like everyone else, He came as a human on this earth and lived a human life, so to think he wouldn't have the same reactions as humans is kinda ridiculous. He was passionate about His message and wanted people to follow, but He wasn't forcing them to, so of course when they didn't follow He would become frustrated.

"@Putin...question. have you ever lied to make sure you didn't get in trouble? Have you ever had trouble believing in anything? I know you'll answer yes to both of these, so why are Jesus disciples held to a higher un-human standard? They were still human after all."

Soldiers die to defend their commanders or kings, and yet Jesus's most loyal followers run away at the first sign of trouble? This man is supposed to be the Son of God, performer of miracles, and yet they tremble at the thought of being arrested? Jesus had previously commanded them to give up their lives to follow him, and they blatantly disobeyed him. (Mark 8:34-35).

@Putin...the Book of Deuteronomy does speak to that, but if you're throwing Old Testament prophesies in then you have to include every messianic prophesy that Jesus fulfilled, which they also should have seen and known as deeply as the one in Deut. So those balance out and aren't a whole lot of an argument when it comes down to that they shouldn't have believed him for the whole false prophet thing, cause they should have also seen through the messianic prophesies that he was the messiah and not a false prophet.

"Jesus had human emotions just like everyone else"

I thought he was divine? Without sin? Why would something divine be in a "corruptible" human body anyway?

not all soldiers die as such, some run from battle. there are 2 sides to every human reaction, and in this case they went with flight instead of fight. it wasn't right of them, as they realized later and were sorrowful for doing so, but that's what happened.

to be able to save the world from their sin and give a way out. the only way that anyone in the world was going to be able to go to heaven was through a pure sacrifice that God was going to accept. That ended up being His only pure Son, who came to earth and lived a perfect life and died for all of our sins so that we can be forgiven and spend eternity with God if we accept this truth. He was without sin, He was divine, but also completely human. He was God in the flesh, and He surrendered everything and even His own will for the will of the Father as you see in Him asking God in his final prayers before He was arrested if the burden could be lifted off of Him. He had every human emotion just as we do, anger at the defiling of the temple as a market, and frustration over people not believing the truth and following Him. That's why he would be in a human body, to give the human race a chance at redemption and forgiveness in the Father's eyes, because the sacrifices of the Old Testament were becoming too corrupt to be accepted. That's the whole reason God sent Jesus to the earth.

Jesus didn't fulfill any of those prophecies. Did he build the 3rd Temple? No. Did he gather the Jews in Israel? No. Did world peace break out? No. Did he spread universal knowledge of the Jewish God? No.

Furthermore that chapter of Deuteronomy (13) specifically says that any "prophet" who seeks to overthrow the Torah is a false prophet who should be put to death. Jesus also can't simultaneously be a male descendant of David and have been born from a virgin mother.

It's the earthly father given to him that makes him a descendant of david. The 3rd temple isn't a messianic prophesy, nor is world peace (he wasn't coming to overthrow the Romans as every Jew wanted him to). Yes, He did spread universal knowledge of the Jewish God, because that's the same God that Christians worship today. Yahweh and God are one and the same, just different names. And the Great Commission of the disciples to go out into the world and make disciples of the nations is a continued spreading of the jewish god to this day. Where did you find the prophesy concerning gathering the jews in israel? I can't find that one and I'd be curious to read the context surrounding it.

(plus there were about at least 65 other prophesies that you didn't mention that were messianic, did you back check all of them before you said he didn't fulfill any?)

Well Putin the way those failed-to-be-fulfilled prophecies are explained is that he will do that shit on his return.

Convenient eh. Also:

" thought he was divine? Without sin? Why would something divine be in a "corruptible" human body anyway?"

The idea here, just in case you didn't know, is that Jesus was God yes, but in fully human form. Meaning his body had the same "original sin" that is supposedly coded into our genes or whatever. So the idea is that he had all the same temptations and urges we do but just dealt with them exactly as everyone else is expected to - perfectly.

Whatever that means. But that's the idea. For a lot of Christians that is a central tenet.

" Where did you find the prophesy concerning gathering the jews in israel? I can't find that one and I'd be curious to read the context surrounding it."

Isaiah 43.

" The 3rd temple isn't a messianic prophesy, nor is world peace (he wasn't coming to overthrow the Romans as every Jew wanted him to)"

Er....ok. I don't know what the prophecies are then. Isaiah 2 says that there will be world peace. Ezekiel 37 says the Israel shall be redeemed when the Temple is built.

"The idea here, just in case you didn't know, is that Jesus was God yes, but in fully human form. Meaning his body had the same "original sin" that is supposedly coded into our genes or whatever. So the idea is that he had all the same temptations and urges we do but just dealt with them exactly as everyone else is expected to - perfectly."

Doesn't Jesus say anger is the most grave of sins on the Sermon of the Mount, equating it with murder? There are a lot of square circles in Christianity.

Yeah I think he did. What of it?

I'm sure Santa will come in here and call me a bunch of names. I can't wait.

We can have a separate debate about emotions and whether they're under your control lol.

And also I think the actual quote is less about anger and more about wishing ill on someone else.

"What of it?"

Well, if he claims it's a sin on par with murder, and yet he is frequently angry, that means he's not perfect. In fact he should be condemned to hell according to his own commands.

To answer the question fully, you have to first place yourselves in the position of the Jews of the time of Jesus. The Pharisees (teachers of the Law for the time) held very strict religious traditions based primarily off of what we know as the Old Testament as well as man-made traditions that strictly defined in very lawyer-like fashion what a person can do and when they can do it as well as how to go about doing it. These legal traditions were the widely held beliefs of the time when Christ was born to such a degree that when Christ came preaching and teaching the Law in a way that they had not been used to hearing it, many were amazed. In addition, throughout Scripture, the people stated that he "taught as one with authority". The primary belief concerning the Messiah of the time was that He would come, ransom Israel from captive Rome and establish a new throne in the line of David and many men attempted to do this along the way. When Jesus came teaching the "radical" teachings and doing things in His own authority, it's bound to tick off the religious elite. When he did not oust Herod or Caesar from the throne and instead died, this gave the impression that he was not the Messiah-to-be but their error was the belief that His kingdom would be an earthly kingdom instead of a heavenly one.

True that all of Jesus' followers deserted Him at the time of His crucifixion, 11 were redeemed after his resurrection from the dead and they were eye-witnesses to this. They saw him die, and John wrote that blood mixed with water came out of His body when he was pierced by the spear indicating that he was indeed dead. After seeing Him resurrected, they were taught many things by Him for 40 days following and then saw Him taken up to Heaven.

Now for the disciples to teach the resurrection of Christ meant that they were either liars or men of truth. Also know that by teaching the resurrection, they would be putting their lives on the line to be ostracized from the community at large, imprisoned and killed for their message because Christ, according to many of the Jews, was a blasphemer who claimed to be God and anyone siding with him should be killed. No man would stand by a lie to the point of death. They were commissioned by their Lord and Savior even to the point of death to preach the resurrection and the remission of sin if others would put their lives on the line and believe and trust in Christ.

There's a great book by Lee Strobel called "The Case for Christ" who touches very indepth on these issues.

@Putin33 - Jesus clearly stated that the most grave of sins was to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or in essence, reject Christ as Savior. He said that a man can be forgiven of anything except this.

@Tru Ninja...thank you for that. that helped express some things in a better way that I was trying to convey poorly lol.

I think everyone has made the mistake in assuming christianity == conservative christians. Those guys are fucking insane. At no point did Jesus ever mention hell, nor that he was condemning people to it. In many ways, the ultra conservative "don't do this, don't do that" christians are closer to the pharisees than any other group of people in 0-50AD.

Jesus did say you wouldn't get to heaven if you didn't follow Him, and that meant all His teachings. so where else would you go if you didn't go to heaven? either hell of purgatory, which could be one and the same. and frankly liberal christians are just as crazy as conservative.

@Tru Ninja, The disciples being willing to risk death for their beliefs is hardly proof of the veracity of their beliefs... only evidence of the strength of their beliefs. ...and there are plenty of people throughout history who have been willing to be put to death rather than publicly recant. ...and I'm not talking only about Christians, here. Also... you note that the gravest of sins is to "reject Christ as Savior" and such a sin cannot be forgiven. Does that mean that the disciples that denied Christ went unforgiven?

Dexter, I think the point is that the disciples were willing to risk death _and were in a position to know if theri beliefs were false_.

Is there any evidence that any of the early Christians were "killed" for preaching the resurrection specifically? You allege systematic judicially sanctioned executions of Christians in Israel. What is the evidence for it? David De Silva claims that few Christians were killed in the 1st century AD. This is especially remarkable considering the martyrdom complex of the early Christians. There is also no evidence of Christians being "ostracized".

"No man would stand by a lie to the point of death. "

Plenty of people die for things they think are true, but most people don't think are true. For example, Islamist suicide bombers.

Tru Ninja said: "When he did not oust Herod or Caesar from the throne and instead died, this gave the impression that he was not the Messiah-to-be but their error was the belief that His kingdom would be an earthly kingdom instead of a heavenly one. "
This reminds me of Mr. Harold Camping's recent adjustment of his prophesy of a Rapture scheduled for May 21st - which he adjusted after the fact to mean not a literal, physical Rapture but some sort of spiritual mushy kind of thing that he doesn't have, you know, show evidence for. His (Mr. Camping's) beliefs remain unshaken. A heavenly kingdom strikes me the same way... also the promises of him returning within the lifetime of people alive during his life... these prophesies were bent to fit the facts after the fact that they didn't come true. A heavenly kingdom sounds all nice and everything - and its something that doesn't require a shred of proof that it was actually accomplished.

"In many ways, the ultra conservative "don't do this, don't do that" christians are closer to the pharisees than any other group of people in 0-50AD."

I disagree. The Sermon on the Mount is full of "don't do this, don't that" moralism, fire and brimstone.

"Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

"“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

Jesus's rules are quite strict, and violations = certain hellfire.

"Plenty of people die for things they think are true, but most people don't think are true. For example, Islamist suicide bombers." Also - plenty of examples of assassins and soldiers sacrificing their lives for political beliefs alone - not even religious ones.