@ thatonekid - Get it right.

It's name is Fag-Naur.

watching this circle jerk yall have going is kind of comedic

As I said in the other thread, mapleleaf is free to insult me but I won't be returning them.

Wow, reading this is a waste of time. How am I going to get my time back now?! I think all of you should be banned to compensate me : ).

@ B-Boy: You still owe time for quitting on four players. That you lost out on taking part in the draw because of it is hilarious though. Nice play.

I got absolutely demolished, unsure how I was still alive but what ever. I voted on a draw and then decided not to waste my time. Not sure I understand what you mean in the second sentence...

So you admit to being a low life quiter, barely one step above a meta/multi cheater. Guess who just made my blacklist for quiting and ruining games for others.

Bahaha guess who made my blacklist for saying things that I couldn't care any less about?

Please keep me on there so I never have to kick your whiny quitting a

Fuck. Stupid phone.

Please keep me on there so I never have to kick your whiny quitting ass in game.

I'm kind of wondering on this because I'm in an anon game where there's been 3 CD's so far, and each one I've been kind of the kiss of death. I head that way, they lose a center, they CD. So any time a high CD player gets raked across the coals, it makes me wonder...is this person one of the jerks that made me lose pretty much all satisfaction in what otherwise would have been a pretty great game?

You're funny Draugnar.

1. The internet is a place for both fact and opinion.

2. Since no one can stop me, and because everyone else can't stop themselves - I grant myself the right to share my opinion.

3. My opinion: people who worry about cheating to the extent that I see on this site are lame.

4. Corollary: most of the arguments against cheating have to deal with either the rules of the site or use logic backed up by "people who need to cheat on the internet are lame (insert reason why here)."

5. Conclusion: Rules can and should be changed to reflect a change in the society governed by them. And: People who get so worked up about cheaters online should realize that they are accomplishing just as much as the cheaters themselves; perhaps less.

6. Let the flame-fest begin anew.

@kislikd - I'm confused... Are you somehow saying it's OK to cheat? Or are you saying that our time and energy is worth nothing - time and energy spent improving our position in the annals of Diplomacy (specifically the GR rankings as well as recognition throughout the entire Diplomacy community which has a long history and is far greater than this site). Would you say that to a chess grandmaster if he caught an opponent using a blackberry to consult with a computer system on his next moves or to a poker player who caught his opponent with extra cards up his sleeves?

Seriously, please clarify why we shouldn't be concerned with cheaters. I value my time and want to enjoy it as much as possible. I also value my ranking in the GR and my reputation as a reasonably decent player (not the greatest by far, but able to hold my own for the most part). Are you saying, therefore, my time is worth nothing?

First off, I'm concerned with people misinterpreting and then misrepresenting what I say.

Secondly, and to answer your question, pick your battles. If this were the deciding match between potential Grand Masters of chess, of course I would not condone cheating. That is just dumb. But you are not a Grand Master, nor is this a worldwide title match, nor is it even anything more important than a game to be played.

I'm happy for you that you found something you think is worthwhile to put your time and energy into. I do that daily with my music and hockey, and I will not scoff at someone else for pursuing a passion. That being said, I feel as if the rules are read with the intensity of a Constitutional Literalist with blinders on. No I don't think we should allow cheating, but I think it's high time we re-evaluated what the hell that word means on this site. When the rules become as much a burden as the thing they are trying to prevent or protect, it's time to look at them anew and make changes as necessary. And I do think that if everyone is to continue on the path of blindly following things as they are, you do more hurt to the people who tried to create rankings, rules, and regulations in the first place. You don't honor someone by following his exact words, you honor him by understanding the intent and meaning behind those words, and acting on that.

So, if you are serious about preventing cheating, then I suggest you and anyone else interested as well as a few who aren't group together to actually EXAMINE and DEBATE the rules.

So in summation, yelling on the forums about cheating gets nowhere, and does more to undermine the legitimacy of any sort of rule-structure than it does to help prevent cheating.

If only you knew how uninformed your pontification showed you to be... The discussion took place and takes place periodically (like now) only to have the same four decisions: don't post cheating accusations on the forum, don't discuss ongoing games (especially gunboats) even if you aren't involved in said game, the forum is a self-moderating forum as the mods are volunteers and have neither the time or desire to moderate the forums, and this is an adult forum so language is allowed. These decisions have the support and backing of the mods.

Now let's say I came and played hockey with you and my entire team formed a human pyramid in front of the net forcing the game to draw or maybe we got lucky and scored against you once then did our pyramid so you had no chance of getting a goal. Would you not feel like we were wasting your time and mocking your dedication? Well some of us feel that way here. I have been playing Diplomacy since the late 70s. It is more than just a time killer for me. And I'm not the only one. So for you to adopt the "it's just a game" attitude is insulting to me. Hockey is also just a game but I respect your dedication to it and would appreciate the same in return.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I&NR=1

Nothing is worse than CD's (especially ones obviously done for the express reason of "I'm losing") ruining a game that was supposed to be fun. Take for example this game.

gameID=48993

It was advertised on the forum as a silly game that we were all supposed to joke around with "stereotypical accents" for the countries, and I put on my best Colonel Klink as Germany. England and Austria also were good with the accents, and while Russia and Turkey weren't really sure what to do, they made some effort. The first CD came when England and I cracked France wide open, and was clearly done because he was losing. Then when we turned on Russia we got some whining via press about England "letting" Germany win, and then he CD'ed with a bunch of centers left. Then Italy, our other target, started filling in orders less and less often until he too CD'ed.

At this point, Turkey had been screwed by Russia and Italy before their CD's to a point where he couldn't take advantage of the situation, and England was Far Away, so I was the one that was able to make huge gains. I told England the situation left a bad taste in my mouth, and he, to his extreme credit, told me to play it out and get the win rather than settle for a draw, since he felt I probably would have won regardless.

The true hero of this game was Turkey, who despite being in a position that more or less guaranteed he'd be stuck at two centers never stopped filling in orders.

I mean, you wouldn't skate off the ice if the other team was up by six goals (and there was no mercy rule), would you? And this game was 36 hour turns...I can't be convinced that anyone wouldn't be able to hit one order every three days (because it's two phases to CD).

Granted, CD'ing isn't cheating per se, but it is cheating me and England (in that game) out of knowing what would have happened if he'd had some back-up when he hit his stab (Italy CD'ed for good right after that).

Drag, if you built a pyramid in front of the net, I'd just crash into you guys :)

That's the difference - I am looking for a fun, happy, and successful route to solving a problem, instead of all the moaning that goes on here. Yeah it sucks when people cheat, and it sucks when people CD too (thanks Digits), but you don't run, and you don't cry. You beat them or you go down trying, and then you choose not to play with them anymore.

Also, you illustrated my other point - nothing ever changes here. The same four rules as you stated are just reaffirmed time and time again. I have already come up with a few changes or clarifications that I would want to see, but I also don't care as much as you do, so I don't consider it my place to come in with new ideas and rock the boat. Still, I know you care and that's great - but the way you show it turns me off from the game. Sorry if I just don't appreciate it.

Oh, and here's a great example: I was playing up in front of the net, and a guy who is a much much better skater and player than me came up behind me, and jokingly, put his hand in my face and held my head. I couldn't see and I damn well couldn't make a play, and if there were refs (this is a self-moderated pick up league - how convenient for these parallels!) he would have gotten two minutes instantly. Still, after that we spent the rest of the game shoving each other around and I decided to not worry about the fact that he was cheating, or being annoying - rather I decided to have fun with it. I checked him a few times and learned how to take and give them instead of trying to play as normally and getting screwed by him every time. I adapted my play to the situation. (When he started trying to get me to drop the gloves I said "you gotta be kidding me - right after your gloves hit the ice, my head will too!" There is the pick your battles thing again)

Anyway, it was a fun game even though we played less real hockey than normal, but that's not a bad thing. Adapt, problem solve, and don't sweat it.

kislikd, if you have new ideas, you can throw them out there, rather than complain that nothing ever changes. I, for one, would appreciate some new ideas. As for 'crashing into the pyramid', you can't really find a fun and happy route to solve the problem of a multi (who is not completely stupid). And for those of us who sometimes like to join anonymous open games on a whim, it's impossible to just choose not to play with cheaters. The only way is to make sure everyone knows the rules, and enforce them. I don't want to spend three hours in a night (or many more over the space of a few months) to find that my game has been ruined by a multi, a metagamer or even a bad sport. It's not what I'm on this site to do.

I don't have a problem with new ideas either. Let's discuss them. As for your pickup hockey analogy. How would you feel if one third of the opposing team were cheating with high sticking and what not. A multi is one third of your opponents at a minimum and usually more.

I think the point, Draugner, is more about the fact that you don't do anything to prevent cheating. All you do is post annoying things in the forums and complain a bunch but really make no attempt to improve the site yourself.

How do you mean? I'm not a mod and I have turned in plenty of cheaters both in games I'm I'm and in ones I happen to discover. I just don't bring the accusations here and I abide by the mods wishes in that regard.

That's not at all what i meant. We can all follow the procedures that we have laid out in front of us. What we do now neither stops cheaters nor effectively catches them all. Our friend kislikd is challenging us to find a new way to deal with problems. To improve our site through innovations achieved through productive discussions.

Draugnar, you do a great job of pointing out the things that everyone who reads the forum already knows. We need to find a way for you to use your energy in a way that is not only productive but also no longer annoying.

@ Lando: The problem is that it's clear not everyone knows the things you claim "everyone who reads the forum already knows". If n00bs and people who should know better didn't keep creating threads accusing others of cheating, the likes of Draugnar and myself wouldn't have to keep shouting "DON'T POST CHEATING ACCUSATIONS ON THE FORUM" at them. Ditto for idiots who attempt to discuss ongoing gunboats.

The very fact that Draugnar keeps pointing these rules out solidly demonstrates the fact that someone needs to keep pointing them out.

But it also demonstrates that this approach is not working. It is apparent that not everyone can be reached through the medium of the forum. The two of you have exhausted this campaign and we need to find alternative ways to promote your message.

Have Draugnar record "DONT POST CHEATING ACCUSATIONS YOU FUCKING ASSHAT FUCKING SHITBAGS" as an audio file and then voicemail it to everyone's email address.

But, joking aside, I totally agree with Lando. People don't know in advance not to do these things and a new strategy could be developed to address that.

"We need to find a way for you to use your energy in a way that is not only productive but [...] no longer annoying."