Draugnar, at no point was I ever going to discuss the details of our issue...so you didn't have to do that. Like I said, my issue now is with the mods who have chosen to take no action. So I choose to tell the truth about the forum. You can be sure that in my quest, your name will not be mentioned. Our hatchet has been buried.

And thank you for contacting me via PM.

Well, I wanted to reassert my apology not just to you but to everyone who had to witness it. I was the ultimate fuck head and really went far beyond the bounds of normalcy/common decency and I still feel terrible about it.

That is a point I will concede Darwyn, it seems that the mods are mostly interested in moderating games rather than the forum. But we're all grown ups. (OK I think there are some teenagers.) Most of the time mods aren't needed. Your experience was the exception, not the rule.

@ Mafialligator, well she's not my cup of tea, but then I'm old and crinkly. I really don't have feelings either way about her. Just don't listen to her. Just watch the vids :)

I am glad, however, that a simple introduction was able to bring a lively debate to the Forum ^.^ I hereby promise not to troll in any form... Guides' Honour. In general I do have a thick skin (or am just thick, I dunno). Just don't kick me in the shin, it's kinda thin around there.

It's water under the bridge now, Draug. Don't worry about it. We straight.

And Mafia, I agree that mods are needed most of the time...I'll go as far as saying that the forums are mostly self-moderating. But the crossing of boundaries needed to be dealt with in this case and the mods failed.

That is all.

I find the nads to be the thinnest skin area, but the Marines taught me how to protect the guys from serious damage and pain in close quarters fighting. :-)

Not to worry, virtually every thread turns into a lively debate at some point, or else it is quickly dropped. We don't really have a serious problem with dedicated trolls. There are a handful, but Amon Savag has long since disappeared, TMW and Conservative Man are apparently on hiatus or something and mapleleaf tends to just show up, make one barely relevant, profanity laden post, and then melt into the darkness. I guess we're just not a fun group to troll.

"mods *aren't* needed most of the time"

"Not to worry, virtually every thread turns into a lively debate at some point, or else it is quickly dropped."

You mean that threads sometimes go off course and delve into an unrelated topic? Well, I'll be damned...

Back to part of the original topic.

There is a league for the "diplomatically challenged" (aka noobs) and we also do School of War (I think that is what they were called) game/thread combos where the better players (not me) analyze the moves and give advice to the new players to help them see what they are doing both wrong and right. Keep an eye out for a future School game.

Ha, he actually ANSWERED that crap I dumoed in there?

From the KING of the Crazies *looks at Tomb Bombadil pointedly* welcome!

Darwyn, I'm retired, but moderators have never been around to moderate the forums. Regarding your specific case, other mods and myself had a serious discussion where we consciously decided not to intervene. The forums have always been open market and moderated more by community opinion than by authority figures. We judged that Draugnar was probably just off his meds again and was generally harmless (=P). Yes, he said some very nasty things, and he tried to find you online, but I fail to see how that is in any way our jurisdiction.

When you come on to the internet, you carry with you the ever present risk of your online profile being associated with your real life person. There's not a thing we could do to prevent Draugnar from carrying out as much research on you as he wanted, even if we might have wanted to. What effect would freezing or deleting the thread have? It's just trying to sweep the issue under a very thin rug; there would be no closure and it would not make you any safer, it would just stop the hurtful words from continuing in that particular thread. The issue would likely boil over into other threads, albeit perhaps in a more passive aggressive manner (ooh, like this thread!). If anything, I think leaving the thread open for viewing gave the community the opportunity to come in and tell Draugnar he's a dickhead, and it gave Draugnar an opportunity to apologize.

I'm sorry you still harbor ill sentiments over the issue and that you direct your resentment toward the moderators, but words are just words on this forum. Speaking as a fellow player and forum goer, Draugnar was being a gaping asshole. However, I think you misunderstand the role of the moderator, which is not to babysit threads or prevent hurt feelings, but to seek and destroy multiaccounters.

Also, Welcome to the Duke. =)

Welcome, Mr. Duke. I hope to see you in a game sometime -- I find that people who didn't learn to play on a website (ie, they learned ftf, pbm, or pbem) and then find their way here or to Bounced or wherever else tend to be very strong players, especially in games with full press.

Whomever mentioned the School of War thing . . . I think those started after my absence and ended before I came back, but I like the concept. Could we organize another one?

Well put Chris.

I would agree with all of that. We had a chat about it (as you can tell from that I even disturbed Chris from his non-moderating life), and whilst none of us thought Draugnar was in the right, the decision was made not to act.

The mod powers are there to help with GAMES, and whilst we'd all rather people were polite and friendly on the forum, that's not our remit.

That said, I do agree with you Darwyn that Olidip.net is great. As an aside, since I think you'll read this, do check your PMs.

There are a handful of good Dip sites out there... and plenty of very bad ones. The good ones, IMO, have lively Forums... and this seems one such. Bothered about swearing? Grow up; it's words. I remember (in a hazy way) my halcyon youth, when profanity littered my sentences. Now, it happens when I can think of nothing constructive to say. It's a bugger.
Personal insults/attacks are different, by their very nature. i originate (in Dip terms) from a different site where the Forum has Forum mods. Swearing is overlooked; personal insult isn't. The thing is, there is room for everything. Whether the Forum is moderated or not depends pretty much on the moderators/administrators. Censorship is a very "borderline" topic, and so it should be. Whatever the legal basis of free speech in the states we originate from - and there aren't that many states out there that actually have freedom of speech recognised - nowhere is quite as free as the net.
And Obi (may I call you Obi?) of course I answered it. You took the time to write all that guff, it would have been RUDE not to answer it :D

^ this ones a keeper.

DoM

What other sites have you tried?

Seconded

Chris, I didn't realize you were retired. But maybe my point wasn't clear. The best way is to take your comments one by one...

"When you come on to the internet, you carry with you the ever present risk of your online profile being associated with your real life person."

I'm fully aware of the online risks. But my profile was not simply associated with my real life self. Please do not trivialize what happened. If there was a pedophile named Chris Pan that lived in Ontario and you were accused of being him, perhaps you'd see my plight slightly differently.

"There's not a thing we could do to prevent Draugnar from carrying out as much research on you as he wanted"

I've never asked or expected such.

"What effect would freezing or deleting the thread have?"

As figlesquidge pointed out to me a little while back, it would prevent that thread coming up in a google search. If I was unemployed and looking for a job, that could very well destroy my chances at gaining employment in this competitive job market. Perhaps it is unlikely, but I'd rather not accept those chances simply because the mods of some game website has deemed it irrelevant.

"It's just trying to sweep the issue under a very thin rug; there would be no closure and it would not make you any safer, it would just stop the hurtful words from continuing in that particular thread."

I disagree...doing nothing is sweeping it under the rug. And that is exactly what has happened, despite my many pleas to the mods. At this point, my expectations have dropped from banishment to thread deletion. And STILL I face opposition...to deleting the thread. This is sad.

"The issue would likely boil over into other threads, albeit perhaps in a more passive aggressive manner (ooh, like this thread!)"

No, this thread isn't a boil over. I simply took it upon myself to inform a newcomer as to the policies of the forum. It is something that I think I should continue to do, unfortunately.

"If anything, I think leaving the thread open for viewing gave the community the opportunity to come in and tell Draugnar he's a dickhead, and it gave Draugnar an opportunity to apologize."

Done and done. Can we delete it *now*?

"I'm sorry you still harbor ill sentiments over the issue and that you direct your resentment toward the moderators, but words are just words on this forum."

I'm sorry that you still don't understand my gripe. I hold no ill sentiments toward the offending party...he and I have buried the hatchet. My ill sentiments are directed at the mods because their inaction (not deleting the thread) has sent me, and most assuredly others, that the behavior in question is acceptable. Perhaps it is something I should do myself?

"However, I think you misunderstand the role of the moderator, which is not to babysit threads or prevent hurt feelings, but to seek and destroy multiaccounters. "

On the contrary, I think *you* misunderstand the role of the moderator. I have not asked or expect this forum to be babysat or that no one hurts others feelings. The behavior in question, I think we can all agree, was nothing that any other forum would have tolerated. The offending party, has himself, admitted as much to me.

All I ask is that the thread gets deleted. It's not an outlandish request given the circumstance. And all I get from the mods are empty promises of action for who knows what the fuck reason...Kestas has stated that he doesn't want to "over moderate". Well, one needs to actually engage in moderation if one wishes to not "over moderate". So I really don't understand.

Again, this is sad.

Honestly, I have no problem with deleting the thread and I bet a random poll of the forum would find that the majority would be fine with deleting that thread. It's only over moderating when people's ideas and opinions get stepped on against their wishes. You have the blessings of the two primary participants.

@peterwiggin: well, you see, I grew up - if that is the term - on WAP sites (the mobile/cell phone based chat sites in UK), co-running my own site for a while (*hangs head in shame*), and on those sites advertising "rival" site names was seen as, for want of a better word, mischievous. So I'll hold back from posting the name of the other site I play Dip on. I'm pretty sure there's room - as I said - for lots of different sites out there, especially with Dip when finding players for ftf is like finding apostles - one, at least, will always let you down. As it is, people will always favour one site over another, and make comparisons. There is another thread on this site which was started by a player I recognise from the site I'm talking about (although the post makes it sound like it's a site as tight as a hen is Foxville, which isn't the case at all). It's organised differently, from the Forum to the games. Some people have visited and not stayed. The thing is, I guess, we all like systems we are familiar with.
One f'rinstance: there the units of each country are coloured similarly to the territories the country holds. Makes them easy to identify. Here that isn't the case, which meant I joined an active game without recognising which units were which. If i had I probably wouldn't have joined the game. BUT that is just what I am used to. Doesn't mean the game play is any better, it's just a different way of presenting the game.
What I would say is that, given my experiences, I would rather play on sites with an active Forum community and with automated judges (providing the judges are accurately set). And I wouldn't venture again onto sites with human GMs for main site games or email communication in-game. Only my preference and only based on my experience of those sites.

Duke of Malborough
I would like to officially welcome you on behalf of everyone here.
So that you know let me inform you of my titles:
1. Code designer of the site
2. Forum Administrator
3. Best player alive
4. Forum Troll
let me know if you have any questions.
On behalf of everyone...welcome again!

@hellalt

I think you forgot to mention that was multiple choice.

Duke, since this isn't a for-profit site, I don't think it has ever been a problem to discuss other diplomacy websites. Although I'm sure it is appreciated that you didn't do so without knowing first. One benefit of discussing other sites is hearing what options other sites have that would be nice to have here some day.

"And Obi (may I call you Obi?) of course I answered it. You took the time to write all that guff, it would have been RUDE not to answer it :D"

Hahahaha... We'll see how long this holds up.

Hello, Duke. Eden here, wishing you a wonderful time and a Merry Christmas from the lively cesspool known as Louisiana :D

I'm not exactly a veteran's veteran myself, but I'm happy to help with anything you might need. Enjoy!

Haha I still think we should hack playdiplomacy.

those bastards.

lol.

And yeah, duke, you will soon learn to read only the first and last sentences obi writes, along with the capitalized words. lmao.

anyway yeah seems like you're legit. so welcome.

and darwyn, take it to another thread or pms or something, because frankly i couldn't care less about your beef.

And thanks again to everyone welcoming me. I shall get my dirk out (DIRK, I said tut) and come find you in a game... eventually :D

@Darwyn/Draug issue - He has a right to point it out, although admittedly mentioning it was probably slightly in anger. I do agree with him about deletion (as he knows) and am trying to persue this. Does anyone have the thread ID btw?