Well the energy crisis of the 70s didn't help and you can't blame that on social programs.

just an interesting piece of history, on July 4th, 1776, whoever the king of England was(can't remember the name right now, and i'm too lazy to look it up. i know it was a king though) wrote in his diary, "Nothing of interest happened today." granted, news traveled much slower back then, but still. it's kinda funny.

King George III

FDR's New Deal didn't end the depression - WW II did. The New Deal is the same crap Obama is trying now...take money OUT of the economy via taxes, skim off the top to fund the federal bureaucracy, and then put what's left back into government run programs that do not have to be either efficient or necessary.

I true stimulus allows the money-holders to keep their money and utilize it to grow their business. This works for multiple reasons: 1. the business owner with money has already demonstrated the ability to make money/grow business -- i.e. hire workers, 2. They have profit in mind, so - unlike government spending - efficiency is important; as these greedy bastards grow their business, they hire more people so they can make more money. 3. the end result of business growth is typicall a "value add" to the economy -- machinery is purchases and built which becomes a part of the productive cycle, for example.

Government "stimulus" -- like the wonderful Obama federal stimulus money I see spent on such worthwhile things as "downtown beautification" or road repairs of perfectly good roads in districts that elected powerful reps while less powerful reps can't bring home the bacon for their roads that are falling apart -- gov't stimulus is generally one-shot crap-work that provides no long-term economic benefit. All one needs to do is look at the "stimulus" spending versus the number of jobs created too see it's useless.

Likewise, FDR's New Deal was crap, and it wasn't until the nation went on a war footing that the economy turned around. The "signs" of improvement that didn't continue happen because of the temporary, useless effect of make-work projects. yes...for a short time people have work...then the ditch is dug and the workers are unemployed again. duhhh. AND, Bob, the fact the you point out that the Supreme Court STRUCK DOWN parts of the New Deal is clearly another indication that it was a horrifying idea -- In order for it to work it had to violate the Constitution? Pleeease...how can you suggest that is a good thing?

Proof real stimulus is tax cuts (not "stimulus spending")...."Cash for Clunkers" provided a lower price for vehicles...effectively a tax cut/price cut for consumners, and sales exploded for the duration. Tax break for home buying...home purchases go through the roof...until the program ends. What's the common denominator? LOWER prices, you stimulate the economy. Want to effectively lower prices permanently for ALL products? Give everyone a tax cut...more money in everybody's pockets, makes purchasing easier. If I have $15 instead of $10 in my pocket, that $1 item is effectively less % of my income, and therefore "costs less".

FDR failed then....and he is failing again under Obama's FDR-style stimulus. and in 2011 when *everybody* will pay higher taxes (bush tax cuts are expiring)....hold on to your wallets! Double dip recession...heading for depression...here we come.

234 years!!! No fireworks for me though, it's raining... :(((((

P.S. The first president was a Lutheran! (not Washington, Randolph!)

We had 7 or 8 shows visible from our back deck tonight and 4 or 5 last night. We live in one a series of communities by several developers in the "rural" area of Northern Kentucky where a lot of CEOs, COOs, CFOs, Presidents, Chairman of the Boards, etc. live because of the river views. We don't have a river view, just a lake in back, so our 3bd/2br ranch is a little more affordable. So many of them pay to have some great shows put in, plus we can see some community fireworks held on the river as it is just 1 mile from 3 of the 4 major compass points from our house. It was a beautiful night so we sat out on the deck and watched some great fireworks.

I'm pretty sure Don't Ask Don't Tell, our lack of a modern health care system and our immigration laws do a pretty good job of living up to the legacy of slavery and killing off indigenous people.

Happy 4th July(not Independence day).

I have feelings about how many other nations you have ruined, so i cannot offerhappy independence day til certain other countries have the American bootprint taken out.

Obama Bin Laden.

Kabul

Curious thing about that American bootprint. If it were a Roman bootprint or the bootprint of many other nations thorughout the world then it wouldn't have been voluntarily removed when the job was done. If we were going into so many other nations of the world with the idea that we were going to rule them, we're just not doing that great a job. Look at all the places we've been and left without a fuss when the war was over.

Happy Independence Day (a tad late)

TGM, you dsidn't answer any of my points, you gave one-lined answers with no supporting sentences to for a coherent argument, or else jsut gave rhetoric.

I'm disappointed...I mean, if I wanted that I would've had a chat with rlumley...

@krellin-

The Court of the Lochner-era decisions was a disgusting, amoral monstrosity. This is the same era Court that gave rise to the legal doctrine of separate but equal. I really don't find them invalidating any particular legislative program a definitive statement as to the actual Constitutionality of the program, more a statement about whether it fit with the political preferences of five extraordinarily blinkered Justices.

@Crazy Anglican-

What places are those? Seriously, if you could name any of them, I'd be grateful, because I can't think of a place where, after invading, we've left. OK, maybe we don't have a base in Grenada. And actually, now that I think about it, we don't have a base in Lebanon. Although we really didn't get the job done that time.

The United States doesn't need boots on the ground to rule the world, and efforts to do so are generally futile. Nah, sea power, economic power, and military influence are enough.

No-one in the world burps unless America says so, and if they don't ask first, they are made to regret.


But OK, I'm sure there could way worse and more bloodthirsty world hegemons that America. So.... yay? :)

And "separate but equal" has exactly what to do with the New Deal??? (By the way, school systems still use the separate but equal doctrine today with classrooms and schools segregated by sex in some cases. It isn't a wrong philosophical point - it was an abhorrent implementation...but meaningless in the discussion of FDR and his bad deal)

And remember that when we finally decide to make our current phantom presence known in the UK. We will come out and show the world that the UK government is a puppet government and both the PM and Queen along with most of both the houses of Lords and Commons are on our payroll.

Just kidding (or am I...) :-)

@Friendly: So friendly....you would have the US do what? Withdraw all it's economic influence from the world? Close down all overseas business operations? Stop lending fiscal aide, mlitary and disaster aide to the world? Stop sharing all scientific advances (like that cool Internets thing)? Yes...yes...we are the purveyors of ALL evil in the world and your country is perfect. Bravo for you...now find something unique to bitch about instead of the oh-so-typical "The US sucks" that gets blathered about on these forums every day. It's sooooo boring and trite. If you don't want to wish your American friends Happy Independence Day, don't...nobody cares about your wishes or lack thereof....but why be a dick about it?

Oh...and when we withdraw from the world, we'll kick out all foreign businesses in the US. That would be good, right? There are a lot of foreign owned businesses here, and foreign owned property. And foreigners. So when we withdraw from the world, we should kick everyone out that wasn't born here, right?

Don't be so defensive mate... jeepers. I just said that I like you Yanks more than I like any other would-be hegemon to have ever existed. Obviously you are purveyors of evil, but no worse than anyone else would be in your position... (and probably better).

But yeah, I will stop being a downer. Happy independence day!! Hope there were lots of fun and fireworks. :)

Ready for the 200th celebration of when you guys got yourselves beaten soundly by your northern neighbours in 1812? ;)

@ Bob

There is a huge differene between "having a base somewhere" which doesn't happen if the host country doesn't allow it, and being using those bases to run things in a foreign government. So in answer to your question:

Germany,
Japan,
Italy,
Austria,
China,
South Korea,
the Phillipines

In all cases the lion share of American troops when home. If a base was maintained then it was at the pleasure of the host country, for instance there aren't any American bases in France yet we were present there twice.

@Crazy- I pointed this out on another thread...how we are in over 100 countries providing military and economic support *at the request* and pleasure of the host country. But people with emotional biases are immune to truth. It's a losing argument.

Re: losing a war in 1812...so what? I don't think there is a country in existence that hasn't lost a war, or at the very least been unable to win won on their own. And truly, as far as hegemony goes, there were some European hegomonies that were a far cry from successful. Typically, the motherland - England, France, Spain, etc - prospered by raping the land of the occupied countries. So if the US is less than perfect - consider who we learned from? The best rapists of foreign lands in the world occupy Europe and Asia...The US is actually quite inept by comparison. We can hardly force a positive vote in the UN from all our "occupied" lands...you think we'd publicly behead a few heads-of-state to get our damned peasant nations in line!! And why the hell am I still paying for oil and gas? Damn we suck...

Krellin, can't you see I'm just messing with you about the 1812 thing? Perhaps I need more smilies. :) :)

We burnt your White House down. :) :)

And regarding being a world hegemon; I am not suggesting the United States go all isolationist, I just think that an appreciation for all the ills you do cause may eventually cause the American populace to start caring about when your government supports monstrous tyrants, when it kills lots of brown people, and when it rapes and pillages the enviornment of foreign countries at the expense of locals.

Just be a better world power, tis all. :)

(and ps. I know there are perfectly logical reasons why you act the way you do.. but the fact that most governments in the history of the world were nasty doesn't mean yours should be)

We cool?

@FS - I was not aware that the US ruled the world

@Friendly - are we cool? Sure...I'm just not sure what you mean when you say "Be a better world power?" You know how much we import from around the world? Those imports are jobs in foreign lands that *need* jobs - (don't go into the exploitation argument, because their bogus in too many ways...a job and food is better than no job and no food. the local government could enact wage rules...they don't...not our fault). The military power and technology that we share with our allies - it's all good. The "unjust wars" in Iraq -- funny, but I'll bet a few of your own countrymen joined the cause, as - despite media reporting to the contrary - we haven't waged these wars alone You need not agree with our response to terrorist attacks or our policy, but to deny that there was legitimate rationale is foolish -- and that rationale *included* the buy-in of governments around the world, and the intelligence reports from governments around the world agreed with our reports. (There were certainly proxy warriors from any non-terrorist states fighting along side Iraqi soldiers) No...I make no apology as an American for our current wars *in concept*....As for execution, they have failed at times, but such is the nature of war. But...you will note...because of the American election process, we are withdrawing troops from Iraq, and the troops remaining will be designated non-combatants. Soooo...this is being a bad world power how? If a mistake was made, it is being corrected by the current regime, whom the world simply adores...<cough cough...>

Ever watch a cop arrest a violent drunk? Sometimes the cop takes out a billy-club and appears to be beating the tar out of the guy. What he is doing - by training- - is fatiguing muscle groups with repeated blows to render the violent person unable to fight. it is actually for the protection of innocents, the cops AND the criminal. at the time, it looks brutal and violent, while in fact it is humanitarian. The light of history will judge our efforts in Iraq....but I think our new Middle-East ally is general agreement that we have done a good thing.

So...sure we are cool...but I just fail to understand the tired and trite rants against the US from countries that - if they could - would still be far worse hegemonies than we are.

Krellin..... police brutality is sometimes justified, but the standard amount of force applied by police is often far exeeding the necessary amount. Hundreds of people are killed worldwide by excessive police brutality. What a bad example.

What I would tell the police departnment, and what I would tell you, is stop being so god damn heavy handed. It ain't necessary, it hurts people, and it makes you look bad.

And no, Obama is no better than Bush, except in terms of PR and control over his lackeys.

"TGM, you dsidn't answer any of my points, you gave one-lined answers with no supporting sentences to for a coherent argument, or else jsut gave rhetoric.

I'm disappointed...I mean, if I wanted that I would've had a chat with rlumley..."

I'm sorry, I just didn't feel up to giving a reasoned argument. The more you have the same arguments repeatedly, the less interesting they are to have. And the sun is out at the moment.

Friendly Sword - I'd rather the police beat some asshole down that is stupid enough and belligerent enough to fight with them. if they will fight a cop...what will they do to me? I'd rather the cop go home to his family at night while some asshole licks his wounds in a holding pen. "Hundreds" die worldwide due to police brutality? considering how many people get arrested *every single day*, those aren't bad numbers at all. Thanks for pointing out how great my example was!

I dunno. I don't really like killing people for dubious and circular security arguments. But whatevs.