@ TheGhostmaker Do you suggest the UK withdraw from EU?

The various comments leveled against Turks as Islamists is misguided at best and racist at worst. The current AKP government is no more Islamist than the German Christian Democrats are fundamentalist Christians. Both parties draw from their faiths to help them answer essential questions about good governance, but neither seeks to impose its religion as the state's or apply a literal reading of a sacred text to the running of a country. Furthermore, the AKP has done more in its time in power (decriminalization of the Kurdish language, asserting civilian control over the military, promoting education for girls, strengthening freedom of expression by allowing the hijab to be worn in state institutions) to liberalize Turkey and prepare it for EU accession than the previous 'secular' CHP governments. In fact, the AKP continues to reform Turkey's institutions in spite of public antipathy for the EU, the result of decades of European stand-offishness and outright xenophobia.

That said, it's a tricky, tricky question. I understand the legitimate reasons why the EU might want to keep Turkey at bay, but there is also an excellent case for bringing them into the fold. I don't think the EU ought to fast-track Turkey's membership talks and bring in a country that;s clearly not quite ready, but then again, the EU did do that for Bulgaria and Romania.

The problem is that there live many people in Turkey. It would gain a big voting power in the EU decision making. That is the difference between Romania (medium size) and Bulgaria (small).

just want France to leave EU anyway, after that all the Indonesia, Pakistan, Birmania, Bolivia and North Korea can join it I won't care.

I forgot Zimbabwe

Serriously EU is underadministrated, ruled by lobbying and undemocratic

Till Turkey learns to respect human rights the Greek Veto for their inclusion in the European Union will be a certainty.

I am impressed guys: some great points for and against. As for Diplomat and his food speech - very tasty indeed. With words like that, maybe you will pull more birds than a turkey next Christmas.

I think that the EU will be thinking hard and long about letting any country join (although the human rights record doesn't help) after what's been going on in Greece. Remember, you can't get kicked out of the EU, so once you're in everyone else is stuck with you.

@warsprite, certainly.

Aslan is definitely right

@Chamois:
"just want France to leave EU anyway" Why?

"Indonesia, Pakistan, Birmania, Bolivia and North Korea" and you worry about Cyprus not being in Europe.

@Aslan
The problem with Greece is that it adopted the Euro at a time when its finances were not in order, Turkey could become an EU member retaining its own currency as several states. Conspiracy theorists might see this as a Greek plot to prevent Turkish entry.

@Ghost
"It is a vile, self-serving bureaucracy without the slightest interest in the people they are governing. I know the statistics relating to the UK on this matter, and they are not pretty reading." Do share.

Recently, the Lisbon treaty was passed, despite the fact that much of it was copied word for word from the European Constitution that was rejected by French and Dutch voters. Asking for another referendum in Ireland was highly dishonest, and shows a disrespect for the people of Ireland and their original verdict. It is not reasonable to ask for vote after vote until one goes the way you want it to.

Barroso has said that the European project should not be stalled by no votes from individual member states, showing his wish to overrule national sovereignty.

The only body allowed to initiate legislation is the European Commission, which consists of 27 unelected representatives. Indeed, most of them have *lost* an election before they are appointed.

The European Parliament has seen MEPs thrown out in total disregard for their own rules for dissenting the majority position of integration that exists in the parliament. It has fined members for expressing their views (such as Nigel Farage's criticism of Van Rompuy- it may have been rude, but rudeness does not justify an infringement of the free speech of European representatives).

The expenses system is entirely corrupt, requiring no receipts whatsoever, but rather being based on more-than-generous allowances. Some of this has changed recently, but only with a 45% increase in MEPs' pay checks.

For 15 years running, its own auditors have refused to sign off on the EU's accounts, because they can only account definitively for 9% of total spending. That is not to say that the other 91% is *all* necessarily being stolen, just that nobody knows where it is going. Until 2 years ago, the accounts for the EU funds were kept on a spreadsheets, with no double entry bookkeeping, no additional copies etc. and could be retrospectively doctored to say whatever you pleased. They did bring in an accountant, who made a series of suggestions that would solve this problem. Did they act on her advise? Indeed yes, they immediately fired her.

The size of the EU's control has expanded hugely, certainly since my country last voted on it's position in Europe. Over the past ten years, over 100,000 new regulations have been written in Europe, and enforced on national governments, at an estimated cost to the UK economy of £120 billion. Now tax harmonisation is high on the agenda, something that will do great harm, for instance, to Ireland, one country that might claim to have benefited from Europe through generous hand-outs (the morality of which is questionable anyway), who have built there economy on the basis of business friendly tax policy.

I have yet to find anyone who would argue for the CAP or the CFP, but nevertheless these seem to persist indefinitely. They add approximately £500 to every food bill in Europe, and they ruin the economies of the third world in the process.

@diplomat61 : I just told you, EU is ruled by lobbying and it is undemocratic. Plus Brussel writes law for so much different countries, that cannot fit every countries. Look at switzerland, each canton has is own rules. And that's great, if a law doesn't fit they can easily change it. Btw you are a Brit and ProUE?

The question "Should Turkey join the EU" is based on two premises:

* Turkey wants to join the EU
* The EU wants Turkey to join.

Plainly, the EU currently does *not* want Turkey to join. Some reasons ring true more than others, but ultimately, *right now*, they don't want Turkey to join the club. Food joke unintentional, I might add, but I give props to diplo61 for the food puns.

Turkey want to join the EU.... but one has to question whether it would be in their interest to do so, until the whole sovereign debt crisis is past - and that's assuming it passes without significant changes to the makeup of the EU. For some strange reason I have a hard time picturing Turkish citizens voting to bail out Greece's economy.....

@Chamois: I am a Brit and I support the EU, at least in principle, and you might be surprised to learn that I am far from being alone. Sadly, much of our press has a different view and plays up the opposition.

@Ghost: sorry, by "I know the statistics relating to the UK on this matter, and they are not pretty reading. " I thought you had some UK specific info. I am aware of those EU failings and I rail against them as you do. However, as I strongly believe that European integration offers a better future politically and economically I prefer that we remain inside and reform it.

The CAP is a particular bete noir of mine. Not only would abolishing it save EU consumers money at the supermarket and in their tax bills. I believe that without it we would have less of an immigrant problem as people could remain in their own countries and export instead. Instead, EU surpluses are exported lowering world market prices.

The cost to the UK is UK specific. I tried to keep the post as general as possible. The UK also pays of the order of £5 billion.

The idea of a centralised EU goes against sound economics: it is well documented that local government is more efficient than centralised government. I can think of no project that is beneficial and requires integration. In terms of political agreement etc., there is just no need. National governments do not need the apparatus of the EU to get agreements.

The EU has caused far more tension between the states of Europe in recent years than it has alleviated. Would Germans be so angry about Greece or Portugal having huge debts without the EU? Would the British be so angry about Spanish fishermen and French Farmers? Would Germany be so concerned about Polish immigration, or the French so annoyed about the UK's rebate?

It is better to be a friendly neighbour to the EU than a dissenting member.

Nor does the EU give Europe a greater say. Norway's diplomats are active throughout the world, punching way above their weight. Conversely, Britain's are under performing. This for a permanent member of the UN security council, for the 3rd or 4th Military power, for a member of the G8!

One other fact: per capita, Britain exports less to the EU from within than any of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland do from without.

@diplomat61, if polling is to be believed, your support for the EU places you in a minority of British people.

@Ghost
I did not claim to be a majority but certainly I am far from alone.

I absolutely support reform of the EU and it's governance mechanisms, economic policies and the Euro. The latter is the reason that the Germans (rightly) are so pissed off at the Greeks and Portuguese. They would not care were they not economically tied to them. Frankly, I am surprised that it took this long for the shit to hit that particular fan.

On a purely practical level, as someone who travels regularly around Europe*, it is SO much easier to do that without changing currency, or needing a visa or to stand in a long line at an immmigration post. I can order stuff from another country knowing exactly what the cost is (and that it is cheaper than my local store).

*In comparison, I used to travel around Asia. For that I had a dozen envelopes in my desk, one each for the various currencies that I needed, and two passports so that one could be at whichever embassy for a visa application.

To me the EU as it stands is in a barely sustainable position between two viable alternatives: a simple customs union (EEC but with less regulation) or a full economic & political union (United States of Europe). My own preference is the latter but I doubt that self-serving politicians have the interest, or ability in many cases, to properly sell that to the people. The proposed EU constitution was a total fiasco and those involved should hand their heads in shame.

"Britain exports less to the EU from within than any of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland do from without." Do you think that we would export more if we left?

I think Ghost's point is that we don't benefit from the trade agreements anywhere near as much as we could and as such this is not a viable reason for membership

"The idea of a centralised EU goes against sound economics: it is well documented that local government is more efficient than centralised government" - how local? a pure free market system where each individual makes their own decisions?

So apart from purely economic issues we do generally accept that we need a government for regulating other things (like murder) Obviously we could have a common crinimal law system, and move all powers to Europe.

But still that would not give local power where it is useful. Ireland recently reduced the drink driving limit (from 80 to 50, mg alcohol per 100 ml of blood) perhaps it is not ONLY ireland which would benifit from this limit but it would be a less important priority in a society which took a different view of alcohol.

So argueably ALL societies could do with their own 'local' solution for their own local problems. However eventually that leads to many different laws between nations and it becomes hard to keep track of where you are and what law you need to abide on any given journey.

I submit that there is a happy medium between the extreme you paint and the one i attempt to paint, for both Economic and Crinimal matters.

It may even be different for each different matter, and it definitely changes with changing technology.

I can't tell you what it is, yet i still fall into the pro-EU camp.

As for Turkey, I am entirely in favour of the Turks being allowed to join the EU.

First the geographical arguement is utter crap, on the basis of the world the Greek knew about the three continents were named. Asia Minor, Africa, and Europe (surrounding the mediterranian sea, which means the middle of the earth) We have now mapped the vast majority of the dry surface of the earth to an amazing degree of accuracy, and any use of this ancient Greek definition is flawed at best.

The arguement about religion and culture is a more interesting and valid one. I would be interested in a detailed comparitive analysis of human rights compared and contrasted between Turkey and the best/worst of EU nations. Look at political corruption in Italy, Bulgaria, Rumania. Look at government failures in Greece. Look at religious perseution in France. There are many many failings with EU nations. The reaction of the Spanish militrary to calls for develotion of power to regional assemblies.

Look at the persecution and failed peace agreement in Turkey with the PKK. Look at the diplomatic situation between Turkey and various other arab nations (and especially the parts of the former Ottoman empire) The current policies of their government of activities of the militrary and police.

I don't have time (or the ability) to provide a concise and detailed analysis, but overall i think we have enough in common with Turkey, and the goals of the EU are favourable to their joining.

@orathaic : "Look at religious perseution in France." LOL do you mean the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572? Are you serrious, Religious persecution?

Only secular countries must be allowed in the EU

@Cham - so Great Britain must leave?

Well that would make Ghostmaker happy.

Of course UK must leave. As most of the member states.