cyber-coffee?

ooolallalalal someones got a dip crush

Someone check out " can't stop the bumrush ". Let me know what you think.

This is one area where I think a lot of investment in time is needed on my part to improve the tools mods have to enforce the rules (though it'll be a while before I can). This has come up quite a bit recently, I get two kinds of messages on multi-accounters:
- Perfectly reasonable e-mails/threads like this one, saying there are too many multi-accounters and why isn't anything being done (lots is being done, and as others have said it isnt as common as some people think).
- Perfectly reasonable e-mails, saying they got banned and aren't multi accounters. Sometimes these turn out to be phony, but more often than not they're very believable and just say that it's a group of friends living at the same place, or sometimes sharing the same computer sometimes.

Problem is there's no way for us to distinguish real multi-accounters from friends, there's little room for moderators to enforce the rules with discretion (it's either ban or no ban, though you should get a warning for gray area cases), and also people are putting less value in the points system and expecting games at all levels to have no multi-accounters (the points system was created in large part to deal with multi-accounters, and I do think that in high points games you're much less likely to run into this, but live games are rarely high point)

I think there's a whole bunch of code that'd help deal with these things, better ways to manage and report issues (the current system is pretty flaky and rushed), better ways to deal with gray area issues (banning accounts from playing in the same games, giving ways to warn players of friend relationships outside the site, etc), tweaks to the points system to make live games work better (tying pot size to phase length so you can be more restrictive with fewer points), and better code to automatically detect and distinguish real multi accounters (time based log-on analysis that'd also have applications in finding the most suitable games, facebook integration that'd make an account tied to something more substantial than an e-mail and would show friend relationships), tournament system support

So this is a big thing on the todo list to deal with, as the site continues to grow. Right now I can't put the hours in but I am aware of it. You should also bear in mind that we have, afaik, by far the largest set of tools for moderators to analyze multi-accounts of any site (even past webDip derivatives), so this isn't a rampant thing that's going unchecked but it is an area with lots of room for improvement


tl;dr : Acknowledged, it's not quite so bad right now thanks to an effective mod team (especially TGM) and lots of code already, but it's a top priority area for improvement

Also as others have said cheating accusations tend to come in waves, as people read about it in forums they think it must apply to their games too, and this is a vicious cycle which can waste lots of moderator time, so please report these things as it says on http://webdiplomacy.net/rules.php

@kestasjk

Cant you just monitor to see if there is more than one account being played from one IP address at the same time?

@ KaiserWilly - Yes they can but as kestas said, there's no sure-fire way to ensure that it's actually a multi-accounter instead of roommates/family that share a computer. I know a father/son that both play on this site and they'd probably look like multi-accounters if they played in more games. I've updated from their house before, this account was actually created there and I've played in games with both of them. So how do the mods know we're not all the same person? They don't. The fact that we haven't been banned is proof that there's more to it than just having the same IP address.

... and Kestas (TGM and others) have and do put a lot of work into this site we all enjoy. I've only been around just under a year but it continues to improve.

I don't play live games and have only played in 18 games. I'm not aware that I've yet been in a game involving multis.

what skills and experience do you need to help the mods and others to run the site? i love this site and i'm acutely aware that some people are putting a lot of effort into making it work for no commercial reward. if that burden can be shared out i'd be happy to help but i am neither a programmer (any more) or a very experienced player.

@KW, my son and I both play and we both play from the same two computers a lot of the time. But then we also stay away from each other's games.

"Cant you just monitor to see if there is more than one account being played from one IP address at the same time?"

This is particularly problematic when you have a school or work network.

To get a gauge of how prevalent (or not) multiing is, I've done spot checks on 50 randomly chosen games. From this I found 1 pair of suspicious accounts only, the other 98% of the games were clean of multiing. I also found a few groups of friends, but these groups did not seem to be malicious meta-gamers.

So I don't think its as much of a problem as people suppose it is.

It's like getting a "bad" country three times in a row. They think it'll always happen to them when it was just a string of bad luck.

Ghost, of the 50 games, what percentage were live games, anonymous games, gunboat games? Can we get a venn diagram?

In case it wasn't clear, I'm kidding about the venn diagram. Mostly.

Yes, I agree with most of the posters on here that cheating isn't rampant. More often than not, it's probably "alliances" that weren't actually in place with one party stabbing the other. I've been stabbed by "allies" before on at least two occasions in what appeared to be very un-advantageous terms for the stabber but, after checking the accounts of the players involved, none were in any other games together, leading me to believe it was more a poor decision (at least in my opinion, lol) than cheating.

I was also accused of "cheating" once (I had played Russia and another player had played Austria) by two players that lost after Austria and I came to a draw. I had initially allied with Turkey to pull a juggernaut but Turkey stabbed me so I sided with Austria. Out of convenience we stayed together for a surprisingly strong game.

Shortly before the last turn or two I tried an (unsuccessful) stab for the win. I quickly made up and after we had wiped everyone else out, I decided to opt for a draw rather than risk just getting a survive since I had already let the cat out of the bag and any subsequent attacks would be expected.

I didn't record which was which, but some gunboat, some anon. some normal, some PPSC, some WTA. Probably no live games given the time I did it etc.

I hate rabbits.

You know, even if I'm wrong or right it seems there's a need for this discussion. I havn't accused anyone in particular of cheating on this forum. I didn't say "THAT GUY'S CHEATING" in front of everybody and I think people are jumping to conclusions if they accuse me of saying that the entire site's broken. I didn't say that. Read it again. Secondly, I've played 7 games, not 4. Maybe someone wants to check up and/or stop taking the words of others for granted.

But still, part of my reason for reacting like this may simply be that I have very high standards that I sometimes project onto others. I'm also a board gamer and if people ever cheat I NEVER play with them again. Also, people only need to lie to me once in order to destroy our friendship.

In my point of view it's fairly easy to cheat, if you want to. You could go to a public library and create a profile and join a game. In my country all libraries are free and there's about 10 computers in each. I can reach 6 or 7 libraries in under 10 minutes from my front door. Or you could go to a friends place and borrow his/her computer, or go to an internet café, where you can sit at a new computer every time. There's an internet café with over 80 computers 5 minutes from where I live. I could seriously cheat if I wanted to, and if the moderator can only check the IP I'd have him fooled for years. I'm not an internet shark but I do know what an IP is.

And to that one guy who throws a tantrum because I display "what an idiot I am for saying goodbye like this": Well, it got people talking and I guess there was something to talk about. So it wasn't all wasted, now was it? There's no shame in contributing in your very own way. No shame on any of us.

Either stay or go. But you don't have to make such a big deal out of it. And BTW, you have only been in 4 games that have finished. You may have been eliminated in the other 3, but they haven't finished.

Cheating is not rife on the site. ACCUSATIONS of cheating have been, of late, to the point where they are becoming more annoying than the cheating itself.

I have finished 68 games. Two of those games were found to contain multiplayers, and in both cases the matter was quickly dealt with by the mods, once a complaint was made. I have a third game which is still running, where a player has just been banned for cheating.

That makes it one verified case of cheating per 23 games I've played. That's too many, of course, because even 1 in 100 would be too many, but it's hardly an epidemic. There is a lot of paranoia, and it seems that a lot of newer/younger players, in particular, are far too keen to shout "cheat! cheat! cheat!" any time they legitimately get their asses kicked.

@Mindtech: "In my point of view it's fairly easy to cheat, if you want to. You could go to a public library and create a profile and join a game. In my country all libraries are free and there's about 10 computers in each. I can reach 6 or 7 libraries in under 10 minutes from my front door. Or you could go to a friends place and borrow his/her computer, or go to an internet café, where you can sit at a new computer every time. There's an internet café with over 80 computers 5 minutes from where I live. I could seriously cheat if I wanted to, and if the moderator can only check the IP I'd have him fooled for years. I'm not an internet shark but I do know what an IP is."

So what is your point? What are you proposing? How do you suggest that this problem be addressed? Paid-for subscriptions?

I've played a little over 50 games, and I've never felt I've been cheated. Some games there were alliances that couldn't be broken, but that is the player's prerogative and if you can't convince them otherwise then sometimes you just die. I don't think it's as wide spread as people think.

I also would highly recommend the leagues to serious players. It will improve your play no matter what level you are as you are playing against serious players that are in the game for the prestige I guess rather than the points.

Also the Ghost Rating is a great way to encourage play with some good competition. Games based on Ghost Rating are very good. Maybe it's the prevalence of live games that seem to be getting a lot of the cheating contention (I haven't actually played a live game yet, but would like to try one day when I have a spare few hours!)

Good on kestasjk and all the mods for keeping this vibrant community going! I find the level of play in the games I'm in very high and courteous and appreciate all your hard work.

Also, who could possibly be arsed to cheat at this game. It kind of removes the whole fun of playing, and I think it's a game that appeals more to the kind of person that wouldn't cheat. It's a lot of effort for not much reward.

Yeah, I know I could cheat very effectively indeed if I wanted (could've even before being a mod), but it would be more effort than just playing normally to a higher standard. Mercifully, cheats are generally lazy as hell.

How do we know how much people cheat? We don't. The only way to know is to catch them in the act every time, and we don't. So I don't think it makes sense to say that lots of people cheat or hardly anyone cheats. We can't be sure. Some of them are bound to get away with it some of the time. Some may be good and are never caught. You also see bankers who cheat and aren't caught for many years, and they have much more to lose.

But we do know that it's fairly easy to cheat, and in my world people like to cheat here and there. We could also talk about cheaters only cheating themselves and so on. I agree. But we're still not making progress.

What is obvious is that there's room for improvement. That's really what I want to talk about. All talk about me being a sore loser or whatever is beside the point and I'm not going to attend those accusations. They're simply not true. I also want to state that I greatly appreciate people taking spare time to make sites like this work. So you guys out there doing the hard work, hat's off to you.

How to improve the site? Here's an idea.
New players could be assigned to the "playground area", where new people hang out. Finish 3 games without leaving and you're in the club, you can play with the serious guys. Doesn't matter if you win or lose, just don't leave. If you leave a game you need to finish another one.

This would weed out the number of players who sign up, join a game, then never return, subsequently ruining the game for others. It's VERY common for people to leave.

Creating a fake player and having him join a game in order to water down the competition is arguably a very easy way to cheat, with little risk of getting caught. Just use another computer. If new players are assigned to the playground, cheaters would need to nurse their soon-to-be-cheating-instruments for a while, which is greatly demoralising to a cheater. You don't nurse a tool for cheating. You spend it and throw it away.

Also, a playground area is a good place for people to learn. I've played with people who ask out loud "how do you build armies?" in 1903. Guess who died soon after. Some people join games without reading the rules, and a playground could attend these cases.

If we did employ that playground idea though the people who *did* already know how to play would be discouraged. I, for instance, came here after playing Diplomacy on two other sites for atleast 4 months, so for the most part I knew what I was doing (not saying I was good, just that I knew how the game worked). And if I had been assigned to a "playground" area it would have definitely discouraged me from continuing on with the site.

Geez, yes, it comes in waves. Now its 'cheating everywhere'. Before that, as Kestas mentioned, it was 'The code is changing my orders'. And before that, it was 'I got Italy twice in a row. The random country generator is broken.'

To the OP, no, you didn't accuse anyone in particular of cheating. What you essentially said was 'This site sucks because there are too many cheaters.' Many of us 1) Like this site and will defend its honor and 2) Disagree with you, as shown by the number 'I've played in x games and only had y cheaters'.

The funniest one was definitely "the code is changing my orders". haha I laughed so much during that one.

JMan,
What I found amusing was during the dozens of 'code-changing' accusations, no one said 'It changed my code and actually ended up benefiting me.' It was always horrific results.