@ Draugnar: If you're going to bring the Bible into this, you should probably go about being fruitful and multiplying with your wife, instead of lusting for someone else's woman.

I'm not religious myself, but I'm just saying if it's a matter of following God, you're taking the wrong path.

Not to get overly dictionarial, but can 'girls' be 'of age', when Draugnar is well above age?

@draugnar - absolutely. that's a struggle though i think, when you feel that you want to honor that we are all sexual, but then the natural maternal/paternal protective instinct can really kick in. it also goes back to our society's beautiful double standards about how boys/men can/should have sex all they want but girls are either victims/sluts if they have sex. but i don't really want to talk more about all that b/c i set myself a rule shortly after visiting this site to not get involved in non-diplomacy related discussions.

@xapi - i'm dying to have a kid but for now my god daughter (for lack of a better word) gets all my maternal attentions, and i would kill or be killed to protect her.

but enough, let's get back to discussing accusations of cheating. and killing each other in the game =)

@Everyone - the "be fruitful and multiply" statement was facetious and sarcastic. I was trying to be funny... Epic fail, I guess.

Honestly, the girls are hot and are both now old enough to appear between the covers of a girlie magazine, but if that was truly what I wanted I wouldn't still be with my 54 year old wife of 20 years.

@ DJ - I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

IMO calling someone a cheater in game shouldn't be allowed - it is NOT a valid strategy, as assumes a presence outside of the game itself. I'm not seriously suggesting we ban him or anything, but I'm speaking idealistically, and idealistically, nothing outside the game should affect anything inside the game. If you think someone is a metagamer/multi, you should accuse them in the forums, not in the game, because the accusation is predicated on information derived from outside the game.

But then again, all this would be solved if we had secret names...

I have a secret name, but no one knows it. Otherwise Lan Mandragoran would also be wanted by Interpol.

@ Xapi, djb, draug, etc.

Although sexuality, raging hormones, etc are indeed part of human nature; what concerns me more than anything (having a teenage daughter) is the blatant objectication of women - that they are not worthy of being anything outside of a means to fill a sexual need. Now, granted, that statement is also a generalization, but it does seem to be more prevalent in various media and subsequently in peoples' consciousness. I am a realist; my daughters will some day have sex, get married, have kids (dad will no longer be the most important guy - insert depressing country song here) etc.. but hopefully it will be w/ a guy that whose respect for her outweights his raging hormones.

BTW. I blame this entire thread on the person that accused rlumely of multi-accounting - that bastard.

@LG - well said =)

wow - just noticed a lot of spelling errors in that. Sorry, sent in haste - I'll do better next time:)

@RLumley,
"IMO calling someone a cheater in game shouldn't be allowed - it is NOT a valid strategy, as assumes a presence outside of the game itself. "

If I said 'you are just attacking me because I'm gay/black/white/jewish/female', would that be not valid either? Is it wrong to try to get in your head?

Don't get me wrong, I don't call people cheaters just to mess with them, I don't do the above either; I like to think I'm pretty civil in my Diplomacy. But I also think people are too quick to publicly cry 'foul', when the very nature of this game is deviousness and mind games.

Think of it this way: Would it be a valid remark to tell someone else you are a multi with someone else, when you know you aren't?

Dingle only tends to call people pathological liars in game. But in his defense, I AM a pathological liar, at least in game... <grin>

On the issue of the opposite sex. Yes, I have been objectifying three women in this forum, but none who would be here reading and mostly in jest.

Ms. Bent knows that I respect her as a player and a person (I hope) and, beyond treating her like a lady in my comments to her most times, I don't view or treat her any differently than any of you teenage fanboys, dirty old men, or anarchists. <grin>

But, I will make an effort (can't promise success, just an effort) to show ALL women, those present and not, the same respect on the forum as I woul din person. And if you all will recall, my company is almost 90% female (9 out of 80 are men), so showing respect in person just sort of comes naturally to me nowadays.

Onar,
An interesting question. It feels like it should be illegal, but I can't see why it would be. I take it from the way you ask the question you feel it isn't valid. Why?

Draugnar,
So you sometimes objectify women, but those women don't read it, and that makes it ok. And the women that DO read it, you would never objectify them? Interesting logic.

And perhaps you respect Ms Bent. But what about all the 16 year old 'teenage fanboys' who are also influenced by your behavior?

@ Dj:

"If I said 'you are just attacking me because I'm gay/black/white/jewish/female', would that be not valid either? Is it wrong to try to get in your head?"

Yes... In an ideal world, that wouldn't be allowed either. Do you think it's justifiable for Draugnar to attack dj (Not that he would win) because she's female? That's outrageous.

@Dingle - The 16 year old fanboys don't need me to influence them. They've got TV and music and movies and all the other forms of entertainment to influence them. Oh, and it is healthy for a 16-18 year old boy to desire a 16-18 year old girl, so long as they treat her with respect in her presence (boys are going to brag to their buddies) and don't act on those desires without the girls' permission (yes, plural possessive for the lucky few).

@RLumley - I would never attack Ms. Bent because she is female. Not only is it wrong, but it would just piss her off and make her that much more dangerous. I'm not a complete fool (just a partial one).

Draugnar,
But you aren't treating women with respect here. You are right, the boys have TV to teach them disrespect. And hopefully they have a parent to teach them respect, but many don't. Maybe if they saw someone here, it might have a little affect on them. Maybe if they saw someone here, and someone at the grocery store, and someone at school, maybe those little things help.

I don't try to claim to be the perfect human, and I objectify them as well, but I don't try to justify it by saying 'My objectification is OK because.....'

RLumley,
Your example isn't right. it isn't' Do you think it's justifiable for Draugnar to attack dj (Not that he would win) because she's female?' The appropriate example is 'Would it be justifiable for a female to say 'You only attack me cause I'm female'.'

I didn't say it was OK, Dingle. That is why I said I would make an effort to stop doing that. I will try to be a better role model, although they don't pay me to be a role model. Hell, they don't pay me at all as far as Dip goes.

No, that wouldn't be any more acceptable...

'I didn't say it was OK.'
My apologies Draugnar, I must have misinterpreted the second half of this sentence:
"Yes, I have been objectifying three women in this forum, but none who would be here reading and mostly in jest. "

RLumley,
Why wouldn't that be ok? What rule does it break to say 'You only attack me because I'm female?'

@Dingle, you just didn't read the whole post. Go back and read this part of the post:

"But, I will make an effort (can't promise success, just an effort) to show ALL women, those present and not, the same respect on the forum as I woul din person. And if you all will recall, my company is almost 90% female (9 out of 80 are men), so showing respect in person just sort of comes naturally to me nowadays."

Now get off my back as I'm not replying to you again on this subject.

Draugnar,
My apologies again that you don't want people asking you questions about your beliefs. I did read your whole post and the others.

I really have a problem with people who try to justify their bad behaviors. If that wasn't what you were doing, perhaps I misunderstood.

rlumley, you've been conned. Everyone who's posted in this thread so far besides you or I all happen to be the same dedicated person.

@ Chrisp: :-P

@ DJ: It doesn't break a rule. Is it ok to threaten to stalk and kill someone's family? There's no rule I know against that? My point is that, ideally, things that happen outside of the game should have no bearing on what happens inside of the game. I realize this is an extremist view, and most people consider it OK to do things like look up player histories, or send me messages about a players history. :-P

I consider letting anything that happened outside the game you are currently playing affect either your diplomacy or your moves is metagaming, and in an ideal world, wouldn't happen. Definitionally, it has to be, since meta means beyond, so it follows that metagaming means beyond the scope of the game.

That should be a period... I feel so dumb when I make grammatical mistakes...