"If these French Jews just sought a safe, quiet life they would come to America. Antisemitism is virtually nonexistent here, especially violent antisemitism."

I think 'virtually nonexistent' is a bit strong. There is not systemic antisemitism in the United States, but there are plenty of antisemitic groups: KKK, Nation of Islam, neo-nazi skinheads, etc. Relatively speaking, you've got a point, but unfortunately we're not yet at the point where antisemitism is vanishingly small.

"You really are missing the point, obiwanobiwan. Israel is an expression of Jews' desire for self-determination, not safety."

You are really missingt he point, Invictus. For the Jews (and I'd argue most people) self-determination either IS safety, or is NECESSARY on some level for safety.

"Despite your pessimism, this status quo is unlikely to change since American Jews are fully integrated into the wider American culture."

Again, I hope to the God I don't believe in you're right about that...since I am an American Jew... ;)

But I think it's fair to be at least cautious about that assessment given that that's been the case before.

There were rich, educated Jews in all those European nations, and in at least some of those instances they WERE somewhat integrated. That didn't stop things from occurring over time.

"In case you haven't noticed, anyone killing Jews en masse seems to be more hated than Jews."

1. Not in certain parts of the world...in the West, maybe...but not in other regions...

2. That's recent for the West itself--it's not as if all those nations were hated and unpopular before the atrocities against Jews up to and including the Holocaust.

"You can't avoid haters."

...Did you really just reduce the question of persecution (for Jews and other people) to the equivalent of "Haters gonna hate?" Really? -_-

"Jews aren't hated because they're Jewish, they're hated because they're living in the big world."

2000+ years of Jews being hated because they were Jewish would suggest otherwise, at least in part.

me: "A lot of libertarians feel hated and persecuted.
Where's the libertarian state?"

obiwan: "See, this is where I start to get pissed...
...
It's not cute, not glib, and insulting to the memories of those lost to facetiously draw that comparison."

My comment was intended as a sarcastic jab against libertarians who are often conspiracy theorists that can't point to the existence of a state which exemplifies their ideals.

^OK then. :)

And the United Nations is against your point as well, Invictus:

"All peoples have the right to self-determination"

Seems like THEY equate safety and freedom with self-determination as well...

That goes for the Jews, the Palestinians, for *everyone.*

Your dichotomy between safety and self-determination is a false one, by the UN's own language.

"But I think it's fair to be at least cautious about that assessment given that that's been the case before."

When were there pogroms in America? When have Jews faced systematic discrimination? If you can point to such instances, have they occurred at any point in the last seventy years?

"Your dichotomy between safety and self-determination is a false one, by the UN's own language."

No, you just don't understand what I've written as plainly as I possibly could. Twice. Or even what the UN quote says, which doesn't mention safety in any way. Typical English major. Always striving for the needlessly complex reading.

Dog, Israel is the one that has statehood and a huge army. Hamas may be vile, but as long as they are some po-dunk dudes with a couple of rockets that can kill like 50 people tops, no one will ever take Zionists like you seriously when they try to make that false equivalency.

Or are you just not aware how many people Israel has killed in Gaza? Israel doesn't want peace. It's obvious. Palestine moving to join the ICC was denounced by Israel and the US for derailing the peace process. You can't blame the Palestinians who responded "what peace process"?

The ball has been in Israel's court for awhile now and they have done nothing. You can't blame Palestine for moving ahead without them. Before long, the world will abandon Israel and the antisemitism you fear will become a grim reality. Far better for Israel to do the right thing now, stay in everyone's good graces, and live on in peace into the future. For some incomprehensible, hateful, warmongering, fascist, racist reason - Israel does not want peace. It's obvious.

As long as this is true, the name of Israel will be associated not with safety but with ever increasing violence, suffering, hatred, and death.

Are you equating Netanyahu and his policies with all of Israel?

yes he is, that's what they do around here.

There's an election in March, Livni-Herzog (Tzipi Livni and Isaac Herzog are running for joint PM) are in the lead for PM. Both are in favor of the two-state plan.

And while Thucy is correct that Israeli leadership does not want peace he obviously is deluded to think that Palestinians want peace. As polls have shown time and again, the Palestinian rank and file, and their leadership, has no interest recognizing Israel as a state, and the Palestinian position for 15 years has been to never provide terms for such recognition. The Palestinian position now is to achieve statehood while allowing for perpetual war to continue, independence without peace. Israel is wary of such a decision.

"When were there pogroms in America? When have Jews faced systematic discrimination? If you can point to such instances, have they occurred at any point in the last seventy years?"

The whole point is that places where Jews were the minority were safe...and then not. Even nations where they had been (for them) comparably safe turned vile and violent.

Give me a reason why America will NEVER turn that way on the Jews. You can't tell the future...whereas I can point to the past over and over and show multiple instances where the Jews were safe, and then not...why should America be any different? Because it's safe now? Look at the America of 1915 and the America of 2015--plenty changed. You have as little idea what 2115 will hold in store as I.

"As long as this is true, the name of Israel will be associated not with safety but with ever increasing violence, suffering, hatred, and death."

But you must associate the Palestinians with violence, suffering, hatred and death due to Hamas' actions and their declaration that they'd like to wipe out all the Jews, right?

That must "say a lot about their morals?"

If it doesn't...then why do the genocidal Right in the Palestinian camp not color the whole, while you color the whole of Israel by the Right? Both Israel and the Palestinians have conservative, right-wing leaders in play...Israel is better equipped, but we're talking about MORALS here, what they are morally, not how well they're able to execute those morals, but just the morals they possess...

So...are you prepared to say the Palestinians are poor morally because of Hamas...or is it still just blaming the Jews while allowing threats against the Jews to NOT be regarded as indicative of bad morals...

Or will you drop this foolishness of judging all Israel by the Right? (Or were all Americans gun-toting, Bible-thumping conservatives during the Bush years, and are now all pinko rainbow-skipping liberals...because it's so easy to reduce the whole of a population to the party in power, right?)

"Before long, the world will abandon Israel and the antisemitism you fear will become a grim reality. Far better for Israel to do the right thing now, stay in everyone's good graces, and live on in peace into the future."

Which I agree with and is a main reason I want him out of power...

But can you get back to saying why you equate all Israelis morally with Netanyahu and don't do the same with the Palestinians and Hamas? Again, even if you want to say Israel's better equipped, we're talking about MORAL judgments you make...

So wrongful settlements and discrimination in the West Bank?
Israel gets seen as having a poor moral character.
Hamas seeks to kill all Jews and actively targets civilian populations?
...Apparently that doesn't perturb you about their "morals" in the slightest...

Because Israel being in power means it's of course MORALLY to target Israeli civilians and children, right? That's how morality works? If your nation happens to be in power, then fuck all the 5-year olds, they're all fair game for a rocket or bomber in a bad mood...that's morality?

"Or are you just not aware how many people Israel has killed in Gaza?"

This time around? The death toll was between 2100 to 2500. So, yes. I know.

I also know that Gaza elected a group of people who have it in their charter that they wish to destroy the Jewish people totally.

I'm 100% with the Israel Must Be Held Accountable for its West Bank Crimes crowd...

Gaza I have a harder time with because frankly, when you make that kind of declaration, and then violate Israeli national sovereignty (whether they recognize it as Israeli land or not, international law would, it's their land, and you can't just allow others to tunnel under and attack a foreign nation just because you hate that nation) and do so while launching rockets from civilian areas (and oh, by the way, where's all that aid to Gaza which was promised by the West? Funny how their outrage came and went)...

I'm not saying Israel hasn't done wrong in Gaza either, just that I think it's fair to call that situation complicated with both sides having done and said some wrong things.

See, I tend to think Israeli-Palestinian relations are more complex than "Israelis are all at fault!" or "Palestinians are all at fault!"

But you go on blaming only one side, and questioning the morality of only one side...apparently declarations calling for all Jews to be killed don't bother you (and you wonder why I question America's always being safe for Jews, Invictus...give it 100 years...passive intolerance gives way to violent intolerance over time--being OK with or even apathetic towards the extermination of the Jews today can morph into a society which is apathetic towards the fate of the Jews in 100 years...and where there's apathy, there's apathy towards violence, and where there's apathy AND the inevitable need for a scapegoat...guess who's filled THAT role throughout history?)

All the Israeli governments say they favor the 2-state solution these days. I'll believe it when the settlements stop, when the war crimes stop.

"All the Israeli governments say they favor the 2-state solution these days." Have you met Netanyahu and Likud?

"All the Israeli governments say they favor the 2-state solution these days. I'll believe it when the settlements stop, when the war crimes stop."

And I'll believe Palestinians are committed to a peaceful, two-state solution when Hamas takes out that portion in their charter where they pledge to kill all the Jews.

Are you opposed to that condition, Thucy? Is there a reason a Palestinian leadership of a free Palestine would need a Kill All Jews clause?

And I'll believe it when the violations of Israeli territory stop, and when the violence against Israeli civilians stops, and when Palestinian leadership distances itself from groups who are openly and proudly Antisemitic...

And will you answer my question about morals, or are you going to dodge that as well?

It says a lot I think that I, an unconcerned outsider, with no interest in Middle East affairs, no interest in either Jewish people or Israeli people or Palestinian people, have begun to legitimately hate the state of Israel, for the shit they have pulled over and over and over again. A few years ago, I was too young to have seen what they get up to, and generally though each side shared blame.

But with the power tilted the way it is over there, the onus is very clearly on Israel, and Israel very clearly doesn't care to do anything that resembles something other than disgusting fascist/nationalistic/tribalist selfish interest. During the last Gaza war, there were hardly any Israeli critics of the violence to be found, even among the left. The country is beyond the pale.

The fact that some people are a little more hateful than me and go one step further and hate Jewish people as a whole over this, especially Muslims and even more especially Palestinians, should surprise no one.

The biggest irony of all is that the state of Israel treats Palestinians the way the fascists treated the Jews.

This is of course not as surprising as you might think - in fact that kind of "oppressed to oppressor in 60 seconds" phenomenon actually seems to be the norm. Witness the post-independence leaders - tyrants - of Africa, like Mugabe. Witness the Muslim Brotherhood rule in Egypt. Witness the American Revolution of Liberty and the continued enslavement of blacks, the continued displacement of natives. Witness American conquest of Mexico, of Hawaii, of the Philippines - but of course it's not an Empire. Witness the Italian move from subjugated and divided country to unification to conquest of Ethiopia in 60 years. Witness the brutal rule of the American blacks over the native Africans in Liberia. Witness the Maroons of Jamaica becoming slave-catchers.

It's a common phenomenon. That doesn't mean it isn't disappointing, isn't depressing.

To be honest with you obiwan, the way Israel has acted in just the last 5 years, I don't blame Hamas for insisting that its objective is to destroy Israel. You cannot blame them for not taking seriously the possibility that Israel will extend any kind of olive branch to them, and since Israel is the powerful one, why would Hamas give an inch? Support for violence as a means of resistance among Gazans has gone up since the war, not down, because ordinary Palestinians are the opposite of convinced that Israel will ever be decent and give them what they deserve the civil way. You really can't blame them. When you're being oppressed all to hell, and no one is helping you, and the law is of no use, you cannot blame people for resorting to violence. It's the same reason I don't blame people in Ferguson for rioting.

But by all means, obi. Keep on with your ethnocentrism. It suits you.

you too, thucy, you too.

What, eurocentrism? Give me a break

"As an outsider with no knowledge of the situation and a faux moralistic streak, I hate Israel."

Sounds like thucy.

I believe you said ethnocentrism, and I believe it quite easily fits.

No knowledge of the situation, where exactly did I say that? I said I had no stake in it, not no knowledge. Quite the contrary I referenced more than once the fact that I've been watching the situation for years, as has most of the world.

I'll assume it's a casual understanding that leads to an unbalanced, unhinged, and unwarranted certainty, quite like the rest of your pet outrages.

For instance - a couple of kids get murdered in Palestine. Israel responds but bombing Gaza into the Stone Age. Meanwhile they continue illegal settlements, will not talk peace, and continue to blame their adversaries for the standstill. It's as simple as that. That's Israeli policy of late in a nutshell. No notion of fairness, of proportionality - none. Our People First and Fuck Everyone Else - that's the policy. Well fuck that. All people are born free and equal in dignity and rights and should act toward one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

yep, as I said.