@YJ - A nationalist is too blind to see their countries faults and follow without question like a fucking lemming. A patriot believes in what his country stands for historically but can see the current flaws and works to promote the former while ending the latter. That is the key difference. I am a patriot but I see the flaws of the US. We stick our noses where we weren't asked too and generally think we rule the world. A nationlist would say "go USA" to every incident. I say "go USA" to taking down Bin Laden and "get the fuck out!" wherever we but in without one side or the other asking us too (unless under UN mandate).

But also realize, as a patriot, I don't believe in abusing or degrading our servicemen and women just because I disagree with the war they were sent to fight.

There are three sides in this country. The anti-war folks who spit on our warriors even today. The patriots who may disagree with our country or our leadership in some (even many causes) but still believe in respecting the fallen and the returning soldiers. And the nationalists who like to call themselves patriots but only disagree with our country and its leaders on the priciples that "they are liberal commies" or some such bullshit. I like to believe that the middle (true patriots who respect their fellow citizens in uniform but judge our countries actions based on historical precedent and realistic goals that don't involve bullying others to make a political point) are the majority and that the two extremists "the so called "patriots" who are right-wing nationalists and the left-wing extremists who are so anti-war and anti-US historical ideals they would see us toss out our 230+ year history) are just very vocal and therefore visible minorities. I'd like to think that. But sometimes I think that is a misguided view and our country is filled with left and right extremists and the sane and rational is slowly being bred out of it.

@ Yellowjacket

Really? Do you think that calling someone a "patriot" is an offensive epithet in left-leaning circles?

I've never heard the word "patriot" used in a derogatory manner, and I've never hear the word "nationalist" used to describe anyone in everyday conversation.

+1 to Draugnar. Spot on with that last post. That's what I was trying to say, but I didn't have the eloquence to say it.

YJ's comments are very revealing of the left - they (the Liberal Left) can't tell the difference between a Patriot and a Nationalist. But, the Liberal Left is also the political wing of US politics that tends to get angry when people bring up the Constitution, original intent, Fuonding Father, etc. They are people people who hold no reverence for what a great country this once was (and is still to a limited extent), and they only desire to change it in to something it never was, and was never intended to be.

Thus, typically, the Liberal Left do not consider themselves (and certainly never seem to openly label themselves) as either Patriots or Nationalists....thus it is no big surprise that they can not understand the difference.

To them, the difference is about the same as trying to figure out the difference between a Catholic and a Protestant. Protestants tend to strongly separate themselves from Catholics - admitting some commonality, but defining significant differences in applications, etc.

Draug's description is right on, I think.

Point in fact...in the current IRS scandal, one of the key words used to identify groups to harass and audit was "Patriot". The Left can't stand Patriots.

@Draug thanks for the clarification, and I don't take any issue with that distinction. So basically you are saying that a nationalist is a Patriot who allows himself to be blinded to the truth?



@GF no, I think you misunderstood me. It isn't derogatory - it's just irrelevant. I work with foreign residents all day and I hear how other countries are better in some ways and worse in some. There isn't much room for patriotism if you see every day how America is just one country of many and you come to believe that neither our system of governance, our citizens, nor our land is in any way inherently special or better than that of some other country.


Anyways, I shouldn't try to speak on behalf of all the left, that's just my take on it, and I'm often a pretty good barometer.

Anyways, a big part of the reason I tend to equate the two is because every nationalist believes himself a Patriot, yes?

So while it is true that I shouldn't then allow that behavior to distract me from the real distinction, it is very difficult to distinguish the majority of cases of self-described "patriotism" from empty nationalism.

where are your colleagues from YJness?

Well, my opinion of the world's opinion of the "us" depends...

...much the same way as other individual's views of me--

A select few friends I care about, otherwise...meh.

So I care what those in the UK think about Americans...and hope they at least realize that there are many different "kinds" of American...and not judge Texans to be the same as Californians, and vice versa (to make a broad, broad generalization, but I think the point rings clear.)

As a lover of the humanities of the West and especially literature, I'd like to think other Western nations at least look favorably on some of our authors, and don't see us all as a lost cause.

I'd hope that those in Israel don't take our friendship for granted...

...and that those in countries which aren't exactly on friendly terms with the US realize that there's a difference between the governments that hate one another and the individual people.

(North Korea's government is one of the most cruel in the world...but I can't think that the average North Korean is like that...given the chance--and something to actually EAT--I have to think the average North Korean would have hopes and dreams just like me...hell, if they were able to read Shakespeare, perhaps there'd even be a North Korean who might love the Bard as much as me.)

In Britain I've never met anyone who's described themselves as a patriot. It's just not done. The left are against it for similar reasons to the Yank left, and the right don't do it because it's just not British. One might occasionally describe themselves as feeling 'quite patriotic', usually before a sporting even, and it might even lead to thoughts about looking for a flag, but like headaches these feelings come and go and don't last long.

America is a great country. They do a lot of things well and are better than most. Their ability to ignore what the rest of the world thinks mean that they remain a bastion of democracy and freedom that is perhaps stronger than any other on Earth. They also have a habit of keeping a few quaint old habits that the rest of the world have abandoned long ago for being shite.

America, in short, is a good thing. Now let's get back to mocking them :)

I don't really care what the opinion of the rest of the world is.

I mean, if somebody (from the rest of the world) has something they want to say about America, and they want to support it with good arguments, then I'll listen, like I will to anybody talking about anything I care about in those circumstances.

But as far as who cares what the rest of the world thinks of us, generically, I am not the answer.

As a Canadian I can't answer the question directly, gotta be American to do that, but I do have some opinions that circle the issue of America's world reputation.
America has done some truly horrendous things that has left much of the world's citizenry with a negative, oft times severely negative, opinion of America. Some highlights of American bad acts would include;
1) treating South, Central, and Caribbean America like it's private playground, overthrowing governments it didn't like, propping up dictators it did like, scamming resources with nothing like fair recompense, qwashing labor movements and other developments that would have improved those nations Prospectss, etc. This influence is diminishing now but far from gone.
2) Taking over British and French roles in the Middle East, doing pretty much the same as the previous empires but without the colonial label, like supporting Mubarak, Saddam Hussein, Batista, and the Shah of Iran, ignoring their people's plight, because they will play ball with America.
3) dropping more bombs on Cambodia than were dropped by all nations of WW I and WW II combined, without ever actually being at war with them.
4) Being the last modern nation to support slavery.
5) Ignoring the Geneva Convention by reinstating torture as a tool or war.
6) Starting the Spanish-American war for no real cause.
7) Prosecuting a near genocidal war against Native Americans.

This list can easily go on but either you get the point by now or you are too thick to ever get it.

Alternately America has done some of the most Noble things in history, things that have left lasting improvements to the human condition throughout the world. Such as;
1) First modern nation to adopt a bill of rights, an Idea copied by most civilized nations. Showing that the idea individuals can have rights that supersede the wishes of the majority or government not only can work in practice, but actually contribute to a stronger and better nation.
2) Fought against slavery, beginning with abolition movements, then the underground railroad, and finally with a civil war. I know the American Civil war is not simply a pro-anti slavery event, but many of those that took up arms were fighting for an end to slavery and knew they were risking their lives in that cause.
3) Faught 2 wars of genuine liberation, WW I and WW II. In both of those wars America was not a conquering power, did not take territory, reparations, or seek to eliminate a people. After WW I Woodrow Wilson sought to establish an international system to prevent similar future wars, he failed, largely overruled by the other 3 of the big four, and then by congress, but he tried, and as America's leader of the day America's heart was in the right place. After WW II America had much greater success, creating two of the world's best democracies in Germany and Japan. I don't think most Americans realize how unusual this is, they were genuinely shocked Russa keep it's territorial gains (as thinly disguised puppet states). I think most Americans believe this is how wars should be fought, but if you look to history wars trully of liberation are vanishingly rare.
4) The Marshall Plan. Deciding to feed the survivors of WW II, friend and foe, until they could recover enough to feed themselves again averted a disaster of a magnitude we'll never know. Nobody knows how bad it would have been, because it didn't happen, but long term starvation in a war blasted content full of leftover arms, paints horrendous pictures in my mind. To give up 10% of GNP is a great gift for any nation to make.

Again this is just a sampling of America's good deeds.

As superpowers or empires go, America is one of the kindest, if not the kindest, in history, I think largely because it is a democracy. Without support of a large portion of the population the government is limited to clandestine bad deeds, great actions require the peoples support, and the people will not long support great evil acts.

That being said many people have just cause to, and do hate America. Anyone whom has lived under an American sponsored despot, and there are many, are likely to feel this hatred. Those whom have felt America's bullying may not hate America, but can easily dislike it. And of course there is always jealousy; jealous of being the most powerful, jealous of American lifestyles. And there is resentment of having to deal with America. It's difficult to move forward on many world issues without America's participation. Global warming, international economics, landmine reduction, etc. Without America very hard to achieve anything.

America also has very good PR, in the form of it's movies and TV shows that are shown around the world, where the good guy's win, American ideals are espoused, American lifestyle displayed, and if the nation is represented, the nation is good.

My guess as to American reaction to the world view of America when it is negative is surprise, dismay, sometimes shock, and sometimes anger.
I think most Americans know that by and large they are good people, and that America has done good things. I think they are less aware of the evils America has done, hence surprize or shock. Dismayed and anger, well how would you feel when you don't understand why someone hates you.
But Americans should not forget many people have a high regard for America and Americans, Most of Europe and the English speaking world. The Philippines still have fond memories of American rule.
And while many dislike the American government they have a fond regard for the people.

@ Obi - american literature is great not a lost cause, gratitude

"The Philippines still have fond memories of American rule."

Ermm, no comment. I'll let someone else rip that statement apart.

Personally, I think its a very country by country type of thing. As an American student studying abroad, I've spent a lot of time trying to defend my country in debates. But generally - people don't like us very much. Europeans look down upon us for our "backward" social systems - health care, social safety net, views on abortion, etc - yet often turn a blind eye to their own problems or America's contributions to their security in doing so. The French in particular wish to combat the commonly accepted idea that America "rescued Europe" twice in the two World Wars.

Around Arabs, Indians, and Pakistanis - just pretend you're Canadian, or at the very least don't ever talk about America's foreign policy (if you aren't vehemently against it). The Chinese students are generally just becoming aware of the brainwashing propaganda they grew up in, so are more open. They are extremely defensive and proud of their country though, and are quick to berate America in order to show China as better.

But again, you're probably going to get very different responses if you actually go to these countries. Responses will differ based upon class. What I've given are mainly generalizations which may not hold among all members of those countries, but I think its true that the majority of the world doesn't look kindly upon the US.

The idea that America rescued Europe in WWII is wrong. Hitler existed and was going to do bad things. Most of the great Western Powers of the world spotted this in the 30s and acted on it by the late 30s. The USA was very slow on the uptake, which led to the Nazis getting dangerously close to winning. It is less that the US saved the rest of the civalised world and more a case that the US failed in it's duty as a world power.

In short Britain, France, Canada, Australia et al saved the US from being defeated before it even noticed there was a problem.

Not wishing to take anything from the US, of course. The very fact that they turned up is solid evidence that they are one of the good guys.

@Oct - Perhaps we shouldn't have sent over all those planes and "consulting pilots" on the lend lease program before Pearl was ever attacked and perhaps we should have only ever dealt with Japan afterwards and let Hitler do his thing in Europe. Think Europe would be free right now? We paid a huge price on the beaches and in the towns and behind enemy lines with airborne soldiers. We could easily have told Churchill to get bent or just decided all we would do is defend the British Isle but let the rest of Europe and North Africa burn. France would be speaking German. Spain and Portugal would be speaking Italian. The Soviet Union would have never been formed. And Germany would be our biggest competing superpower.

@Draug - wrong on several fronts. I don't want to derail this into a WW2 argument, but every European country paid a far higher price than we ever did. And Britain was kicking the Italians ass before we even got involved.

Yes Europe did pay a higher price but for a European to essentially blame us for that price when we had no obligation to fight in that theater of war is a very ungrateful thing to do. It's lile the punk ass teenager who complains that the car their parents gave them isn't cool enough. Buy your own car then (next time someone attacks all of Europe and is generally kicking its ass, don't come to us for help).

Hi redhouse: All over.

Canada, Spain, Chile, Mexico, China, Russia, Germany, Poland, France, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Italy, and Denmark (sorry, no Dutch that I know of). And those are just the ones I'm on a first name basis with.

The only thing that I can tell you that we all have in common is that they are people just like us. Most of them don't trust their government, just like us. Most of them are somewhat proud to identify as whatever it is they are, just like us. There is nothing special or wonderful about being an American. We may be "on top," right now (debatable) but you're a fool if you think it will last forever.

+ 1 Draugnar

+1 Draugnar. Very well explained. I believe I was the person who made that statement that was referenced, about being a patriot, and not a nationalist, but you explained it perfectly.

In regards to WW2, we financed that war. Britain and Russia could never have done what they did without US support, US supplies, and US money. The Russians did the bleeding, but we paid for the trucks, rations, boots and planes that they used.

In regards to the OP, my experience abroad was in the former Soviet Union in the 1990s. They LOVED Americans over there, and they desperately wanted to emigrate to America. I had more than one encounter with a couple who wanted me to take home their daughter with me.

JoSo, a minor quibble, on your fourth indictment against America:

Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia made extensive use of slavery, though it's called "forced labor" or "political imprisonment".

Just ask the Jews and Poles and Russians about Nazi work camps...

@ Draug at al

You seem to be arguing that America paid a high price, but that isn't in question. What America failed to do was take early and decisive action. If the US had made it clear to Germany in the 30s for example, that further expansion would mean war, it would have ended things much earlier or possibly stopped them before they began.

America was a great power and as such had great responsibility. It failed to live up to these responsibilities and missed an opportunity to hugely reduce the most damaging war on the planet. This eventually cost countless American lives.

America pulled a lot of weight when they decided to and were a vital part of the fight for civilisation against the dark, but to try and spin indecisiveness and reluctance as some sort of heroism doesn't wash. You were late to the fight against evil, and because of that evil almost beat us.

Maybe next time we don't bother to show. We were just coming out of a huge depression and we had (nor do we have now) any obligation to interfere. You place some.perceived obligation where it didn't exist. There was no UN at that time and we were free to do what we wished. Had Japan not attacked we would have stayed providing money arms and equipment with a few pilots and other soldiers to train on the equipment's use. Quit putting.obligation where none existed.

Draug - not that you know, but the Depression was even worse in England and Germany than it was in the US. The Depression isn't an excuse for our inaction.