valoishapsburg
With regard to Steevo's question: "Can he then create something so big he can't lift it?
God is unknowable. All you need to know are his commands.

The fact we have so many people discussing this at 4am (EST) makes me wonder...what's everyone doing awake and on the forum at this hour? I'm at work, that's my excuse.

I am in Australia. It is 8:10 pm here (Daylight saving time).

What are you doing working at 4am?

If God is unknowable then you cannot possibly know which God he is. How can you be sure the text you derive your religion from contains his commands? Perhaps it is another text.

I dont believe in "Dont question, just accept" especially when his commands can be interpreted in numberous ways depending on your own viewpoint.

I'm working the night audit at a hotel on the US East Coast...three more hours until I get to go crash, lol.

You know in your heart. If you you need to know to which God is the correct God you should watch South Park more often. Answer: the Mormon's were right.

the word Elah and Allah have similarities because aramaic is the sister language of arabic.
just how arabs and jews are of the same blood - they are both semites.
i just mentioned it because you were adamant at calling the 'christian god' different from the 'muslim god'.

It's 3:13 here in Minnesota

and i said that trinity makes as much sense to imam's as it does to rabbis - and that's zero. they both reject it for the same reason - they think its blasphemous to believe that jesus is in anyway divine. this isnt just an islamic belief, it's a judaic belief and as someone said earlier christianity is a form of judaism. so that's how off the mark trinity is.

furthermore jesus never said anything about trinity. so when the author and the creator of the religion didn't create that idea which has apparently become one of its fundamentals, you have to think about it.

so do that steve - think.

the f1 formula racing finale starts in about 6 hours, should be epic. vroom vroom.

Spyman, it is interesting that you can just know in your heart, seems like that would be said from someone of any faith. Would your heart know differently if you had been born in India or Iran?

Lazy, you're presuming that everything in the world is in one book - the Bible. Islam is based on a book, Christianity is not the book is simply one portion of the whole tradition on which Christianity is based. Keep in mind the idea of the Muslim God (a unitarian god) makes as little since to Christians as the Trinity does to Muslims and Rabbis. You're speaking from the presumption your belief is right - which is fine. What I've been trying to point out this entire time is that each of these beliefs is pertinent only within a given religious faith tradition.

Valois, did you notice the part where Spyman was mocking religion in general? Oh, and what's your excuse for being up at 3am? =P Lol.

why think, thats just questioning, and as spyman has said that just ends with you going to hell!

Maica stated that Christianity was a form of Judaism in its beginnings. I would go to further to point out that it no longer is, as originally they were merely Jews who believed Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of messiah, not that their entire believe system must be overhauled, jesus obviously was a practicing Jew.

Christians were part of the Jewish community until they were kicked out by the unitarian Jews who saw their worship of Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity as blasphemy. Oh, and for the record the Jews killed Christians for this, fyi.

No Steevo, I guess I didnt catch onto his mocking religion. Im currently suffering from insomnia, and enjoy these discussions a bit too much.

Sorry valishapsburb, I am an atheist. I apologize for my mocking tone, especially the South Park reference. However I do stand by what I say, and I do think that it is true for religious people. If you believe, you believe because you believe. Certainly in Christianity, faith is all important.
I still stand by this though, if there is a God, it is unknowable and can do whatever it chooses. Thus if God dictates that we must believe whatever it dictates, then that is the word. End of story.

steve i'm saying the idea of trinitaism or whatever you call it, never existed. jesus never bloody said it. the jews never knew about it. adam the first man knew nothing about it. the whole idea of a unitarian god is part of the 10 commandments.

if you believe in the trinity, you have to abandon the idea that that christianity believes in one god. like valo says, the belief system has totally broken away from the it's origin - judaism.

it now believes in 3 gods - "in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit". that is 3 separate persons.

my point earlier was that the jesus never taught this trinity and that it was manufactured *by other people*.
many priests will agree with this.

I guess the final thing is which God you believe gave the true commandments then. I understand Faith is the glue of religion, but i also think a certain questioning of what faith is based upon is certainly not a bad thing.

I think most Christians reconcile the three-in-one idea of god like water. Water can have three forms, water, ice, and vapor, and yet all 3 are the same thing. I dont believe the bible would support the Idea of the Trinity, because not sinning does not make you god, since Adam and eve would then have been gods if they hadnt sinned.

Christians, however, are very choosy in what parts of the bible they like to see as significant and those parts which no longer apply. 1st commandment applies, but now we have a 3-in-one God. Though, in english the 1st commandment literally states to put God first, but worshipping other god's like Baal come second.

Spyman, the idea you believe because you believe as an explanation for belief makes no sense from the standpoint of trying to explain why someone believes. Obviously everyone who believes anything has a reason for believing other than the fact they believe what they believe. Even if it's not a justifiable reason for their belief (e.g., they believe because they were raised that way) there's still an outside reason.

Lazy, God is three persons, but one substance (ousia). The three persons of the Trinity are one substance, they are one God, but God is three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

"The three persons of the Trinity are one substance, they are one God, but God is three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."

yeah so that is 3 gods.
just admit it man, you believe in 3 gods.

Lazy is drawing upon Protestant ideas where tradition is not necessarily part of the doctrine. The bible is to be interpreted by itself, and literally. What Lazy is saying is the concept of the Trinity is not supported by any verse, or implication of verses within the accepted Bible. It is a concept wholly outside the bible being applied to the bible to give it new meaning. Of course the Protestant ideas can be refuted as well, thier interpretations and use of tradition. This is evident in the fact that Protestants believe in the trinity.

we seem to be having an argument between what might be labeled Arianism and main stream christianity.

yeah i have heard about the water analogy.

that doesn't explain the passages where jesus goes to the mountain and prays to the father. how can someone talk/pray to themselves. so bogus.

Lazy, like I said, the Christian understanding of God is that he is one thing, but has 3 different states. I can have water, ice, and vapor in very close proximity of each other, but their all the same thing, just different forms.

Maybe Jesus needed some heat to become vapor to reach God, I dont know. Maybe Christians back it up with "He was in the Flesh, and somehow seperated because of that." I honestly do not know the answer to your question. God could be Schizophrenic, talk to himself?

yes valo you hit the nail on the head, there is no verse that supports the concept of trinity. priests have imply it's existence like lawyers mold their conjectures

yeah so when you look at the evidence you have to draw the conclusion that jesus and the father were totally seperate persons. they weren't connected in anyway. totally debunks the trinity concept.