american press is so biased its pointless using it as a source

Video of mortars being fired from that same school in 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI

What Israel is doing in Gaza is no different from what NATO started in Afghanistan in 2001. Don't pretend the US under any administration, or the UK, or any developed country wouldn't do the same thing in the same situation.

A lot of my fellow activist types tend to side in a conflict with whichever side seems more desperate. That's not a measure of who's right.

Just because Israelis (INCLUDING ARAB ISRAELI CITIZENS) have a higher standard of living than any other nation in the middle east doesn't mean they're the ones who are wrong.

Very delicately, I return to the discussion hoping that everyone might be a litlle more receptive to calm and reasoned discussion.

I think one of the most important things which we must all acknowledge is the right of Israeli and Palestinian people to peace, and the right to a national home.

Didn't God promise those lands to all of Abraham's descendents? Isn't it time to learn how to share?

Dingleberry -

As to your link...a few things...

Take the June 24th entry: "Three Qassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday struck the Israeli border town of Sderot and its environs, causing no serious injuries but constituting the first serious breach of a five-day-old truce between Israel and Hamas.[54]
Islamic Jihad rocket exploding in the distance, breaking the 5-day truce. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack and said it had been a response to an Israeli military raid in the West Bank city of Nablus at dawn on Tuesday, in which a senior Islamic Jihad operative Tareq Abu Ghali, 24 and another Palestinian university student Iyad Khanfar, 21 were killed."

Ok, prior to this incident (five days into the ceasefire), there were exactly two rockets launched...one of them reportedly a mistake and the other single rocket...no one knows.

But it seems here that this particular attack was in response to YET AGAIN, more Israeli incursions and abuse!

"it had been a response to an Israeli military raid in the West Bank city of Nablus"

So your link really only confirms what I've been saying. That Israel continually defies it's ceasefire terms with other abuses and then uses any sort of retaliation as justification for slaughter.

Israel is far from being the poor, helpless country surrounded by "bad guys" that she likes to make herself out to be.

Israel has a very powerful and well trained army backed by superior US weaponry. It is no match for the Palestinians. Israel can and should be taking the moral high ground here. Just because I shoot at you with a BB gun as retaliation for evicting me from my home, it doesn't give you the legal or moral right to force me to watch you slit my daughters throat and then stab me in the heart.

Israel was created as a homeland for Jews. To make it a safe haven for all Jews worldwide. It was created in part to protect Jews from persecution.

Yet, persecution is EXACTLY what they are doing to Palestinians. Israel has no problem reminding us all of what happened to them during WWII, yet affords the people that THEY persecute no such sympathy.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649878,00.html?1
Don't pity the Palestinians...This pity may be a natural emotional reaction, yet it is unethical and immoral.

Obviously, the IDF feels the same. But allow me to show you how Israel really feels about Palestinians:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.html

> David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country.

> "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

These are but two of hundreds of examples. Israel alludes to what amounts to ethnic cleansing. But for what? The crime of the Palestinian is only their home. Yet, they are beasts...

>" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

I'm sure there is much hate speech from Arabs as well. But examine the differences here. I'm not saying it's right, but Arabs hate speech is founded in injustice...as if a crime has been committed against them. Israel's hate speech is founded in hubris...as if they are superior. Do you see the difference?

Israel and her Jews feel they are entitled to this land from God. And they certainly act like it.

Read "As Arabs see the Jews" one more time. THAT is the viewpoint of the Arabs. NO solution will ever come unless THAT viewpoint is addressed. But I fear this will never happen because Israel is much too arrogant.

And speaking of arrogance...Think about the phrase "God's chosen people" for just a minute. Does anyone else see the extreme arrogance here?

I half expect to be called an anti-semite here. But let's face it, that's as common as it is ridiculous defense to the actions of a country...

Oh...I would also like to point out the list of 60+ UN resolutions that Israel as defied over the years.

By far, more than any other nation.

What does that say?

Sorry to keep posting...but this just came to me...

Does anyone else see the irony in the governing body (the UN) that legitimizes Israel's existence is the same one that Israel defies time and again?

I don't think it's ironic at all. I think it has more to do with irrelavence. Nobody really cares what the UN says anymore. It has become a joke.

well then isreal's existence is not legitimized

The UN didn't legitimize Israel's existence. Harry Truman did.

Meanwhile, the fact that Israel defies UN resolutions says as much about the UN as Israel. They hate Israel. I think the UN is a valuable institution and I'm as liberal and pro-international cooperation as anyone, but the UN is not democratic. Its members very drastically in population and many nations are represented by despotic governments.

-India is a democracy of a billion people.
-The USA is a democracy of three hundred million people.
-Tuvalu is a democracy of just under twelve thousand people.
-Myanmar, Sudan, the People's Republic of China, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are all extremely despotic and dangerous.
-Somalia is in anarchy, but one would-be government is deemed to be the rightful government of Somalia by international organizations.

Each gets an equal vote in New York.

Well, if the conclusion to Israel's defiance of UN resolutions is that the UN hates Israel, then isn't the converse of that true also...since "it says as much about the UN as Israel"? That Israel hates the UN? At the very least, they clearly show no respect to whatever authority you think the UN is or isn't.

The only reason Israel exists under any pretense of international legality is because of the UN. And yet they hate them?

Israel gets to pick and choose which UN resolutions they want to adhere to it seems. Choosing only to recognize the one that she owes her existence from while ignoring the rest.

Again, the arrogance.

Iraq certainly didn't enjoy that luxury. Aside from whatever corruption or double standards there may be in the UN, what makes Israel so special here?

I'm curious Darwyn, what woud your solution be to this problem you speak so vehemently about?

Wipe Israel off the map? Two State Solution from the status Quo? Three state solution? Further territorial and Diplomatic concessions to the Palestinian? Uniting West Bank/Gaza/Israel into one crazy-ass multireligious federation like Lebanon?

Over 340 posts. And I thought the gay marriage one was long.

"The only reason Israel exists under any pretense of international legality is because of the UN. And yet they hate them?

Israel gets to pick and choose which UN resolutions they want to adhere to it seems. Choosing only to recognize the one that she owes her existence from while ignoring the rest."

I think you forget that Israel accepted the UN Partition Plan which allowed for its existence in 1948. This UN Plan was soundly rejected by the Arabs. The UN did nothing afterwards to protect the new UN Sponsored homeland when it was invaded by 7 nations. Israel does not owe its existence to the UN. It owes its existence to the Balfour Declaration and the fact that it won a war.

"This UN Plan was soundly rejected by the Arabs."

Why on earth would the Arabs ACCEPT it?! This is EXACTLY the kind of arrogance I'm referring to! Don't you get it?! The Arabs had no reason to accept it at all! Israel's claim to their divine right is their own, not the Arabs.

You have now uncovered precisely what is wrong here. As I said, read "As the Arabs view the Jews" again. It's all right there.

Also, I suppose that since you chose to only comment on the UN's role here, that the rest of what I said has been acknowledged by you...specifically, Israel's policy of breaking cease fires and using any retaliation as justification for slaughter.

So, what makes Israel so special?

"This UN Plan was soundly rejected by the Arabs."

Sorry again for the followup...but do you realize how revealing that statement is? As if to suggest that the Arabs had any reason to accept it. As if the Arabs had an obligation to recognize Israel's "divine right".

Excuse me, but GOD DAMN is that ever arrogant!

"I'm curious Darwyn, what woud your solution be to this problem you speak so vehemently about?"

Israel and only Israel has the solution...not me.

I didn't answer the rest of it, because it seems pointless to argue with you. Israel will claim Hamas violated the ceasefire first, Hamas will claim Israel did. We know where you stand on your objectivity.

Did you know most Israeli's are secular? They have a secular government, and, much like the US, are held hostage by the religious right (exacerbated by their style of proportional representative democracy and necessity for coalition governing (the same weakness the Italian democracy has).

Religiously, the Jewish religion claims a divine right.
Secularly, most Israelis support their country (how dare they!) because they finally have a homeland. Nothing to do with divine right. You need to separate the religion from the politics. They are not one in the same. Christianity, Islam, all religions have statements about being the chosen people, that the ONE path to righteousness, Heaven, virgins, etc, is through the ONE true religion.

My point about the Arabs rejecting the plan... The Arabs are well within their rights to reject the UN plan. But why do they now seek succor and redress under the same UN? The Arab states and the Palestinian made clear in 48 (and since then) that they did not accept UN Resolutions, unless favorable to them. Just like Israel. Hmmm....

"The Arabs are well within their rights to reject the UN plan. But why do they now seek succor and redress under the same UN?"

lol...Who's supposed to help them? The only help that is acceptable and that isn't met with resounding force is UN aid.

Are you suggesting that since they rejected the UN plan they aren't eligible for aid in their slaughter for rejecting it? lol...Again, the arrogance. You act as if the Arabs were complicit in some crime against the Jews...as if they had some part in this mess.

So please do not try to compare Israel's acceptance of UN resolutions when it favors them to the succor and redress the Arabs seek in their own genocide.

Who's responsible for this mess in the first place? We can point fingers all we want, but I'll tell you who's fault it wasn't. And that is the Arabs. Yet they are the ones paying for it daily.

No one is saying that Jews or Israel do not have a right to exist. But the international community has certainly failed the Arabs.

And ultimately, this is the international community and Israel's problem to fix. And so long as the international community (be it the UN or the US or whoever) doesn't intervene and instead allow the slaughter of Palestinians, the problem will continue to exacerbate.

My whole point in posting here and engaging in an argument was to hopefully shed light on a problem that is often misunderstood. Especially by Israeli sympathizers.

I have no problem with any ethnicity or religion. But I do have a problem with people who have no respect for others.

And that is precisely what Israel does...as I've clearly shown.

Darwyn condemns Israel for defying the United Nations, but says it's arrogant to point out that Arab nations do the same.

It likely won't matter to you dingleberry, but just an FYI -

CNN confirms that Israel broke the cease fire.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

Again, this is consistent with my pointing out their policy of using impotent retaliation attacks to Israeli incursions and abuse to justify slaughter.

"Darwyn condemns Israel for defying the United Nations, but says it's arrogant to point out that Arab nations do the same."

Where did I say that? I effectively said that it's arrogant to suggest that Palestinians are ineligible for humanitarian aid for their own slaughter from the only world body Israel would ever deem acceptable (as opposed to Iran or other Arab states) simply because they rejected what ANYONE would have rejected.

I apologize if that wasn't clear.

"Defying" the United Nations implies that the UN has any relevant powers to enforce its decisions.

Darwyn, you told another poster that it was arrogant to say:

"This UN Plan was soundly rejected by the Arabs."

This is a long read, but it is perfect for this time when turns are not processed...

I dedicate next link to all those US citizens who THINK their government is NOT ruled by Israel Lobby:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

In the context of the immediate statement previous to that: "Israel accepted the UN Partition Plan which allowed for its existence in 1948.", yes, it is arrogant to think that the Arabs would or should accept it.

Israel accepted the plan but the arabs "soundly" rejected it? The implication of the juxtaposition here is obvious.

Great link Denzel...I've read it and the US - Israel relationship needs to be re-examined by every thinking American.

that was a very informed link denzel