Oh, and the right to peacably assemble is in that document we can the Constitution. It's in a little something called the First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/06/8184537-who-is-occupying-wall-street-not-just-your-average-joe?GT1=43001

"Shane Stoops, a 23-year-old self-described “renaissance man” and nomad from Port Orchard, Wash..."

Yeah...23 and a renaissance man, are you, Mr. Stoops?

What an appropriate name, though! As you're such an unproductive drifter and leech ins society, I imagine you make your home on MANY stoops...



And if it seems like I'm being cold here, it's only because I AM.

I'm serious, I HATE things like this, pie-in-the-sky protests with unrealistic goals that make attaining REAL goals all the harder as the media shifts focus to these morons...

You want to eliminate greed from human economic dealings?
As humankind is arguably BASED on self-interest and, by extension, greed, good luck!
You want to eliminate lobbying from D.C.?
Again, that's how the system works and always has worked...GOOD LUCK!

Get a life.
Get a job.
Get some experience.
And THEN come to me and say you actually have a tangible, realistic goal.

Number one lesson I've learned here and in life the last few years...

Whether its applying for a job or making your own employment or just stating your opinion and trying to convince others...

Economic power and experience make ALL the difference.

@Draug:

I'm not arguing they don't have a right to protest...I KNOW Freedom of Speech (though somtimes I'm ignorant of The Right to Remain Silent.) ;)

I'm arguing their protest ITSELF is misguided and foolish in its very premise and goals...

I'm sorry, but "eliminating greed in humanity" and "eliminating lobbying in politics" is NOT going to happen; the former's part of human nature, and the latter's built into the political system, MONEY is ALSO a legally-recognized form of Freedom of Speech, and there's a REASON lobbyists are colloquially referred to as the "Third Wing" of Congress.



Peaceful protests are 100% fine with me--I backed the Arab protestors, remember?

It's the OBJECTIVE of that peaceful protest here I'm disputing.

So, I suppose you feel the same way about the protests against racism and the protests of the Vietnam War. The youth of our country have always been the impetus of chnage through their naive protests and activism and I aplaud them for it, even if I don't always agree with it. They are the future and my generation is on the out, so let them shape the country into what they want to live in for the next 50 years. My generation did it's share of damage (the 80s me generation) so it's there turn to see if they can do better.

Fuck you, Obi. You're one of those dickheads who sit from the sidelines and complains, or spouts off delusional screeds about how the world would be great if it was run by "elites" like you. Oh no wait, you'll support "protests" (insurrections) in foreign countries but not your own. People are protesting the people who got us into this mess. They put their bodies on the line because police love to crack skulls if it's the left, while letting rightwing thugs show up with guns to "tea party" rallies.

Macho assholes who talk about "getting a job" when others are out there fighting the people who are taking away jobs need to be arrested for anti-social behavior and being a free riding leech on people who actually do productive things for the world.

Well, Draug, they're part of *my* generation, and I don't approve. You beat the system by using it. There's the referendum option for a reason. You don't want lobbying in Washington (or state capital of your choice)? Fine, I support you. Just get 50,000 people to sign on with you, and then have it set up for a vote in November. That easy. With e-documents and social media these days, it should not be that hard of a task to do. You can even electronically sign (and there are databases to validate signatures now too!)

Obi - don't worry, that's the 5th amendment you're forgetting :p

Also, the freedom to protest isn't universal, and it has been long established as such. You can protest on the sidewalks all day, every day. But if you want to go into the road, you need a permit.

Clowns love to talk about "rights" "freedoms" and "freedom of speech" but it seems like the only "freedom" people care about is the right to say offensive shit and degrade other people. Actual participation in the political process is looked down upon with contempt. Sad sad little clowns. You're what's wrong with the world.

What is *productive* Putin? in your definition of the word?

The referendum option is a joke and used by the rich to manipulate the political process. Reforming the system from within has worked so well, hasn't it? Yeah right, the super rich parasites who tanked the economy are really being punished. Those financial reforms are really being implemented. No of course not, because our representative system allows Capital to have a disproportionate voice in the process.

Yes, which is why we need a referendum on campaign finance and lobbying reform!

Referendum is still a viable option. Marijuana legalization will soon pass by it in California, I think, and is being used in many other states

@Obi - who are you or I to judge the futility and naivette of their protest? Let 'em protest within the confines of the law. you may be surprised at what they accomplish. Remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Helping to advance collective survival and social progress. What do pseudo- Platonist egomaniacs like Obi do for the world? Nothing. He even demeans small children for not having his vocabulary. And working class teachers who work hard for a living. He's nothing but a cynical bully.

Freedom was won in the streets. People love to suck the phallus of the military. But the military didn't give us the right to vote, speak or assemble. Social movements did. But free loading cynics like to pretend otherwise.

Just checked to see what Putin is writing and saw this:

"Helping to advance collective survival and social progress. What do pseudo- Platonist egomaniacs like Obi do for the world? Nothing. He even demeans small children for not having his vocabulary. And working class teachers who work hard for a living. He's nothing but a cynical bully."

Ad hominem as usual. Back to mute Putin goes.

@Draug:

NO, it's NOT the same as protesting against racism or Vietnam...

In the case of RACISM, it was valid because racism is NOT logically-valid for human nature, that is, there is no logical or moral reason to treat another race as inferior, LET ALONE all the historical atrocities that gave background to the Civil Rights Movement's finally coming out against it...and they had a realistic, tangible goals, ie, the same equality WHITES enjoyed.

Since the black/white line of inequality was drawn artificially, it makes perfect logical and moral sense to go against it and emand the natural, "inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" the FOUNDERS had promised...and failed to fully deliver on (and in their defense, that was part of their time, and if they'd tried to settle the race issue right off the bat the nation would never have agreed and consolidated, so they can be excused, but by the 20th century...no.)

Vietnam?

TANGIBLE GOAL--STOP THE WAR!

That's a LOT different than "Stop all greed ever!"

@Putin:

Ah...I KNEW you'd say that!

You would back a pie-in-the-sky movement...morals over tanglible goal...high-mindedness over actual achievements...

Carter over the Roosevelts, right?

@Obi - First, I wrote that at the same time as your response to me, so I hadn't seen it. However...

Second - Racism could well have been part of human nature. In a world with less technology and therefore less equality, to gt ahead one needed every edge. Morally worng as it may be, greed motivated racism. Keep those you view as inferior under your thumb and you have the power and the money and they have none. You say greed is inherent in mankind. Well then, racism which was power out of greed for power is inherent in mankind. In the days of the caveman, bashing in a competitor's skull or killing a competing tribe was greed. Today it's murder and genocide. Both of these are also morally wrong. For all you or I know, the youth of today may make advances to make financial greed at another's expense (graft and corruption) morally worng and results in more accountability put on the books to corporate America.

Finally, while those words you quoted ("Live, liberty...") are in the Declaration of Independence, but there is no guarantee in the Constitution to them.

" What do pseudo- Platonist egomaniacs like Obi do for the world? Nothing. He even demeans small children for not having his vocabulary."

Well...I'm FIXING that kid's vocabulary and basic knowledge of the language he SPEAKS...

Like teaching that "P" is not a vowel and "th" does not make the same sound as "ch" and where to put which letters.

In other wrods--A JOB.

WHICH PAYS.

AND PRODUCES A GOOD FOR THE SOCIETY I LIVE IN AND TAKE BENEFIT FROM.

I wanted to further myself, and actually went about and DID SO, rather than pitch a tent and whine about abstract psuedo \-philosophic ideas...

I do THAT on a forum in the Internet, and if people want to talk, I'm happy to discuss it with them--and NOT mute people--and all the while...

I DON'T STOP BECOMING A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF SOCIETY.

@Draug:

I'd argue that subjegation of PEOPLE may be logically permissable...not MORAL, mind you--so get off your high horse, Putin--but logical...

But NOT racism, as that's just based on skin color ALONE, and there's no logic in subjugating someone based on that.

Calm down, obiwan...


"It's the OBJECTIVE of that peaceful protest here I'm disputing."

As far as I can see, the main things this movement are calling for are as follows:

- Presidential Commission to investigate the influence on elected representatives of lobbyists funded by banks and big corporations, and to look at how this influence can be curbed.

- An increase in taxes for the rich.

- An increase in taxes for corporations.

- A reduction in corporate subsidies.

- Support for trade unions.

I personally support all of these objectives.


I feel I need to respond to some of your specific comments:

"As humankind is arguably BASED on self-interest and, by extension, greed, good luck!"

Arguably. Arguably. But on the other hand, arguably not. I would argue that one of the greatest things about civilisation is that it has the potential to bring about something other than a greed-based system. Humans are intrinsically social creatures who have the capacity to care deeply for each other. Greedy "human nature" for me is more about nurture than nature. People are greedy because they are raised to be greedy in a society which rewards greed. Stop rewarding greed, make changes to education, and you can change this so-called "human nature".


"You want to eliminate lobbying from D.C.?
Again, that's how the system works and always has worked...GOOD LUCK!"

It's always been that way, so even if that's bad, no-one should try to change it? Where's the logic in that argument?


@ Draugnar: "The youth of our country have always been the impetus of change through their naive protests and activism and I applaud them for it, even if I don't always agree with it. They are the future and my generation is on the out, so let them shape the country into what they want to live in for the next 50 years. My generation did it's share of damage (the 80s me generation) so it's their turn to see if they can do better."

Thank you Draug, I totally agree. What a lovely, positive comment.


@ goldfinger0303: "Well, Draug, they're part of *my* generation, and I don't approve. You beat the system by using it."

Um... Peaceful protest is part of the system... isn't it?

@Obi - QUIT FUCKING SCREAMING! there. Now if you want to stress something, *stress* it, but DON'T FUCKING SCREAM IT TO THE WHOLE FORUM.

Oh, also, please STOP TYPING IN BLOCK CAPITALS, IT'S FUCKING PAINFUL TO READ.

Obi, I'm a Marxist-Leninist. Not only am I a Marxist-Leninist, I'm an MLer who appreciates the advancements of reform that bourgeois liberals have achieved. I'm the very opposite of what you attack me for being. But I at least appreciate that people want to organize something against Wall Street, even if it isn't the clear-cut astroturfed lobbying movement of the tea party with a single message. It needs direction, and hopefully some Marxist groups and trade unions can provide it direction. But I'll take activity over theory anyday. I'll take people who want to make change over people who think it's impossible anyday.

Heh, Draugnar was thinking the same as me...

+1 Jamie.

*OK, I'll use these more from now on.

Fair point.*

:p

(Incidentally, Kestas, if you're out there somewhere...

If I might make a request *long* desired on my part...

If we can add a +1 button...can we have an italics button?

I'd SCREAM a LOT LESS then.) :p

"Obi, I'm a Marxist-Leninist. Not only am I a Marxist-Leninist, I'm an MLer who appreciates the advancements of reform that bourgeois liberals have achieved. I'm the very opposite of what you attack me for being. But I at least appreciate that people want to organize something against Wall Street, even if it isn't the clear-cut astroturfed lobbying movement of the tea party with a single message. It needs direction, and hopefully some Marxist groups and trade unions can provide it direction. But I'll take activity over theory anyday. I'll take people who want to make change over people who think it's impossible anyday. "

Well said, Putin. Off the mute list you come. I'll give you another chance. We may not always politically agree, but as long as *that* can be the discourse, I'm more than happy to discuss our differences with you and benefit form the experience.

@Putin:

I know you're a Marxist-Leninist.

You are the 180 polar opposite of me, a Nietzschean-Platonic Capitalist.

And the movement doesn't need direction...it first needs an actual *goal.*

This isn't 1917 where the Bolsheviks are alreadyu simmering a bit and just need a Lenin to launch the movement and give it shape in proper...

This is a bunch of "self-described renaissance men" like Mr. Stoops who are hipsters and nomads and leeches on societythat need a job and a life...

Or, in other words, they need *self*-direction before they *dare* try and give direction to the nation, let alone their "global" goals.

Four Dead in Ohio ring a bell, Obi? The college students of the 60s didn't have a direction either. Hell, the flower child was all about free love and world peace, not just stopping one war, but stopping *all* war. Yet they accomplished something. On the way to accomplishing a grand an unachievable goal, you may well solve and achieve much.

Cervante's Don Quixote is a prime example and I'm reminded of the song from The Man of La Mancha.

To dream ... the impossible dream ...
To fight ... the unbeatable foe ...
To bear ... with unbearable sorrow ...
To run ... where the brave dare not go ...
To right ... the unrightable wrong ...
To love ... pure and chaste from afar ...
To try ... when your arms are too weary ...
To reach ... the unreachable star ...

This is my quest, to follow that star ...
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far ...
To fight for the right, without question or pause ...
To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause ...

And I know if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest,
That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
when I'm laid to my rest ...
And the world will be better for this:
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach ... the unreachable star ...