How does one go about joining? Is there a league below B that, if one did well, they could move up into B league? Or is this something for more experienced players?
Thanks,
-EM

I just checked the site but I still don't understand how you join D league...

You need to contact the organizer of the league. In this case, I believe it is Alderian.

I don't like it at all, Alderian. It totally changes the make up of the leagues as they exist now. I've worked hard to reach the A league and be in the elite 14 players of the leagues, now, while I'm sure I would be Premiere league as I am A League this coming season, you have just made players I crushed (two wins in the same season , F'm A!) become my equal and they'll want revenge.

No, I don't like it at all. I would suggest you start a different set of Leagues if you want to alter it that much. I like that Premiere and A only have 7 players each and B only has 14. Moving up the ladder means so much more when there are so few slots to attain.

If you want to talk about altering scoring to make wins worth more and draws less or making the leagues semi-anon, we can talk. But this is just madness. :-)

Babak and I have talked in private a lot about a system very similar to this.

Draug, the Leagues are broken. It's as simple as that.

This season has been the least enjoyable set of games I've ever played on this site. Wizard has said he won't be returning if things aren't changed. Babak and LG are also unhappy. When at least 4/7 of the Premier League is unsatisfied, I think it's worth reconsidering.

The current format encourages bad play. It is impossible to play without significant metagaming. It is not Diplomacy as it was intended to be played. I'm not saying we can't have a tournament like this, but it shouldn't be our flagship tournament.

Increasing the size of each division has a number of advantages, most importantly:

Significantly less metagaming
Getting to play with more people

I will say that that League should remain non-anon. This keeps it truer to F2F and it's fun to get to know people through playing with them.

So make your own league. Some of us enjoy the leagues as they are. Change our leagues name to the meta-leagues and make your own set and all is fine. But the fact is, limited meta is what this league is about.

Should it be the flagship league? Probably not. Do yo have the right to tell alderian he has to change it? Most definitely *not*. I will continue in these leagues if they remain with the basic format that has been established and would consider joining another league if it started up. But I would find it disrespectful of you, a mod, to try and force the leagues to be changed to what you want them to be. The leagues are not run as a democracy nor are they an official part of the site, so your opinion is no different from anyone else's and you have no right to try and force it on me or the others of us who also enjoy the leagues as they are.

In short, I repeat. Form your own leagues if you don't like them as they are or just leave this one altogether. The choice is yours.

One more thing to note:

"Significantly less metagaming" - I enjoy this aspect of the leagues.
"Getting to play with more people" - I like getting to really know the six others I play with over the course of four games.

So, as you can see, your reasons for *are* my reasons against changing the leagues. They alter what I enjoy most from the leagues.

Draug, you really need to get over yourself. Seriously.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone. It is the TD's decision how the game is run. But, just as I am the TD for the GFDT and I welcome suggestions, I would hope that the TD of the Leagues would also be interested in hearing what participants have to say.

I don't at all think it inappropriate to bring it to the TD's attention that a majority of the Premier League was unsatisfied with how it worked out.

"When at least 4/7 of the Premier League is unsatisfied, I think it's worth reconsidering."

Why are the concerns of the 7 players in the 'Premier League' being valued so highly? The only discussion so far seems to be centering on these select few players - which is disconcerting considering how popular the Leagues were this season.

I actually agree with Draugnar's idea that the best solution might be to change the name of the Leagues, as they currently are, to one that reflects the nature of them and create a new community-inspired League - based perhaps on orathaic's suggestion of larger player pools.

I'd be happy if league games didn't mean pausing for a month and a half.

@Sarg

Because, presumably, the Premier League should demonstrate the highest quality play and that's not what happened. Is that not cause for concern?

I'm not saying I'm more important because I'm in the Premier League, I'm just reporting what I've seen and suggesting how it can be fixed.

@sarg Think European soccer. If you still don't understand have a mate explain it to you.

@The Czech: Are you trying to patronise me or am I just reading you wrong?

Reading me wrong.

But abgemacht, the Premiere League represents the best at playing that style of League. Changing the format as you describe would quite possibly result in the list of Premiere League players being altered considerably. The current players got to the top by being the best at limited metagaming and now they want to change it? That is elitism at its worst.

Screw the 4 of 7. They can go form their own league and play with themselves (pun intended).

And it's not all about me. I'm speaking for all those who played the game and played well and earned their next spot up. That is a total of 21 players, IIRC. The reason 4 of the seven are bitter is because at least 3 of them were demoted to A league. So their wittle feewings got hurt. BFD. Let them go join your care bear league. Leave the meta-leagues to those of us who know how to play them.

I like the league just the way they are, well maybe few minor improvements would be beneficial but overly I am very much pleased with current set up :)

"the Premiere League represents the best at playing that style of League."
"Leave the meta-leagues to those of us who know how to play them."

By your own words, the Premier League players are the best at the League, so I'm not sure what your comment means.


I don't know why you're taken such offense to this. Why am I not allowed to express my opinion? As I said, I've welcomed all suggestions people have made to me about the GFDT.

I also don't see your point about working your way to the top. I also worked my way to the top. I've fought tooth and nail to be in the Premier League the past 2 years, and there's a decent chance I'll stay in the Premier League for next year. I don't at all appreciate that you're misconstruing my attempt to improve the League as some ass-backwards attempt to sneak back into the Premier League.

@abgemacht: I'm not convinced the Premier League should demonstrate the highest quality play. I think presence in the Premier League more demonstrates a list of players who have been on the site long enough to have clawed their way to the top of a tiered system that operates only once or, at most, twice a year.

That's not a comment against the 7 players in the Premier League - I'm sure they are all high quality - but perhaps another reason disaffecting your group is the stale nature of it. The unseeded nature of the current League format saw players like myself, The Czech, barn3tt, President Eden, and goldfinger0303 being placed in the D leagues. If the leagues play twice-yearly, it will take us us within at least 2 years before we can attempt to challenge your position in the Premier League. Most of those players have a very high GR rating, Eden is running the GR challenge this month and goldfinger is "Dean" of the "School of War". It seems incredible that such highly esteemed players would have to wait 2 years before being able to challenge for the Premier League.

It's obviously a problem if getting to the top of the League seems almost impossibly restrictive for most players, despite quality. And, as you say, it's also highly destructive to the Leagues if getting to the top of the League is a wasted effort because 4/7 of the players in the Premier League are bored and unhappy with it anyway.

However, just because 4/7 of the players in the Premier League are unhappy doesn't necessarily mean that the whole thing should be reconsidered, scrapped, or replaced. It was said before that the Leagues were more popular this season than ever before - with 10 groups being played. If it is that popular then people are obviously attracted to the format and idea and, as Draugnar said, attracted to the idea of getting to know the same 6 players over 4 games with the potential to understand your opponents and use that insight over the course of the games. That being the case, why not have 2 official leagues - and create a new flagship League, with fewer, larger divisions.

Try actually *reading* what I wrote. I said the best at playing *THAT STYLE* of League. this means metagaming and all. No the best on the site. The best *AT THAT SYLE*. Sorry for hollering, but you seemed a bit deaf on that one.

And I know you said best in the league, but they aren't the best in the league. They are the best at playing that style of league. that is, the best at playing limited metagaming and using it to their advantage.

@Draug

In the same post, you said both that the Premier League players were best at the Leagues and you said that the Premier League Players should leave the Leagues to people who actually know how to play the Leagues. That makes no sense.

@Sarg

I agree it gets stale at the top. Isn't that more reason to have more people in each bracket? Instead of 3 people moving in and out of the Premier, we'd have 6. A good player could get to the Premier after two Seasons, not two Years.

@Sarg

We already have a lot of Tournaments:

The Leagues
GFDT
Gunboat Tournament
SOW
World Cup

That takes a lot of players and commitment from organizers. It may be hard to add another tournament. I'm not saying we can't, just that it might be hard.

@Draug

I still don't understand why you're so angry.

"@Sarg

I agree it gets stale at the top. Isn't that more reason to have more people in each bracket? Instead of 3 people moving in and out of the Premier, we'd have 6. A good player could get to the Premier after two Seasons, not two Years."

I absolutely agree with this. That is what I was suggesting be the aim of a new League tournament that could be created - however, I completely take your point that it takes a lot of commitment and organization. In this regard, I would be happy to help if something new were to be set up - as I really think it sounds like a good idea.

Let's try this again so abgemacht can follow.

1. The Premier League represents the best at limited metagaming ("at playing that style of League"). That means each season's Premier players were the best from the season before.

2. The players *got to the top* by being the best at it. Doesn't mean they still are. Just means they were.

3. Now these players are whining and want to leave because they don't like the metagaimng, the exact thing that got them there to begin with. We have a saying here where I work. There are stated reasons and real reasons and they are almost never the same. Their stated reason is they don't like the metagaming. Well, boo-fucking-hoo. Metagaing is what go them there to begin with and what will get me there next winter after I come in the top three in A league this summer. their real reason (for at least three of them) is they got demoted because they got their asses kicked by the better meta-players.

4. I said let the ones who know how to meta better take their places. Metagaming got the Premier Leaguers where they are. Losing their edge is getting them demoted to A league to play with myself and hellalt and whoever won B2 along with the one person who came in the exact middle of A league this past/current season.

----------------------------------------------

That said, I disagree that making 1/3 of the participants be "Premiere" is really a "Premier" league at all. You have basically turned it into the top 1/3rd, middle 1/3rd and bottom 1/3rd and with drop outs that may as well be the top half, bottom half, and newcomers. Hardle a Premier and A-League. It degrades the quality of play that should get you to the Premier and A-League. That would be like any Joe Blow jumping on the Seniors Tour with Jack Nicholas. It has to be earned no matter what your GR and points are.

Shoudl we have more promotions and demotions each year? Sure. Make the majority of each league move up or down a league each year with the exception of Premier where the top 4 stay and the bottom three trade with the top three of A. Bottom 4 of A go to B and top 2 of each B goes up to A (all 7 of A move up or down). Bottom 3 of each B swap with top 2 of each C (that's 5 of 7 in B). Bottom 4 C move down to D and top 3 of each D move up (that's 6 of 7 of each C and nearly half of D moving).

TheWizard is staying in the Premier League, but may step down.
Babak is staying in the Premier League, but has spearheaded the changes to the League.
Mal is staying in the League, but I don't know where he stands.
LG or I are staying in the League and we both dislike it.

So, no, we are not upset because we are moving down to A. 3/4 are staying and if Wizard does actually leave, then 4/4 would be in the Premier League, or have resigned. So, your accusation of false motives is clearly wrong.

As to point 3:

The quality and quantity of metagaming between this year and previous years was drastic. That is what concerns me. I believe it is a trend that will continue you.

Only 4 players will remain in Premier. Of course, those demoted may get promoted back due to attrition, but they were effectively demoted. Who are those 3 being demoted and where do they stand?

Why is TheWizard possibly stepping down? Is it because of the Leagues style? And where would he have fallen (i.e. Who took what position in Premier this season?)

Wizard, Babak, and Mal are still competing for 1st.

Unless something crazy happens, LG and I are playing for 4th.

The others not moving on are:

Laoban
Crazyter
TGM (Resigned)

I don't want to speak for Wizard too much, but if I understood him correctly, he may step down because of the style of the Leagues.

"The quality and quantity of metagaming between this year and previous years was drastic. That is what concerns me. I believe it is a trend that will continue you."

I quite enjoy that aspect, so again you are using my (and others) reason for enjoying the leagues as a reason for destroying them. And if metagaming was so bad in Premier and the majority of the Premier league didn't enjoy it, then who were the metagamers? All three of the other three? Soudns to me like they figured it out, even if they weren't as successful at it for whatever reason.

Seriously, let's just call them the Meta-Leagues and let those of us who like this play continue in them. It's the one place we get to metagame for position and not be called cheaters. It's a metagaming outlet if you will.