Well, it's capitalism that has brought the world to where it is so I could ask you roughly the same question (even though you made a statement...)!

didnt greece buy all goldmans crap CDO's? so a capitalist took a shit, convinced a socialist it was flowers, and the capitalist then attacks the socialist for the shit he created in the first place?

Pot meet kettle

No matter what name a country uses for its ruling parties political ideals, it is impossible to separate that from the global hegemony that capitalism currently occupies. There are no real socialist or communist countries.

If it were purely a "capitalism" problem, then all countries would be in equally bad shape. Piss poor argument, at best.

Locally, Greece is part of the EU, which is generally much more Socialist than the US (as many comments on these forums from Europe have pointed out), and yet europe as a whole is not in as bad a shape as Greece is. So, once again, there is something specific to GREECE, and by reports I see it is that Greece had EXTREMELY lavish social spending programs that have bankrupted the country.

The majority Socialist country does have Capitalism - that Capitalists PAY the taxes, while the Socialists in government spend faster than Capitalists can make money.

I think a bunch of you people out there need to get your head out of the sand and understand that Capitalism and Socialism intermingle and co-exist. But generally speaking, GOVERNMENTS are Socialist - it is a form of government, while Capitalism is more a description of the business economy. Capitalism can be wildly wildly wildly successful and a country STILL go bankrupt if the Politicians spend more than is made on every social program that passes their fancy.

So get a clue...it isn't Capitalism that caused the problem. Demonstrate the PROOF of the that claim. I point to a government with a majority Socialist rule with Socialist spending policies and that socialist government is bankrupt. I don't see the word "Capitalism" anywhere in the description of the government. Since government ONLY spend money (not make/creat) they can not, by definition, be Capitalists.

@Krellin:
You are doing an interesting juggling act...

If a government fails, and it is in a country that is socialist, it is because of socialism. If a government fails, and it is in a country that is capitalist, it is because of government. Nice try.

Unregulated capitalism destroys just as well as extreme social spending. In a regulated capitalist country, with a strong socialist system in place, the banking industry didn't go crazy and blow up. Canada. Instead, it barely was effected. Now, we look at the really unregulated places like the US, where the US government has essentially taken on the screw up into itself, and saved capitalism. The UK is another of these really unregulated, and they got hit horribly badly as well.

So, regulated capitalism with a strong social safety net seems to work very well. Perhaps we should move in that direction?

this is just stupid. if it wasn't for the socialization of the market loses (through bailouts) we'd all be in a deep depression right now. ...and the irony is that that particular brand of socialism the capitalists are all for... yet when the going is good, socialism is bad. Privatize profits, socialize losses. That is the ideal world for a successful capitalist.

Also of current interest... the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico... the failsafe switch that would have prevented this from being an ongoing catastrophe?? well, our "pro-business" government, in its infinite wisdom (unlike rigs in the North Sea), left it up to the oil companies whether they wanted to volunteer to install that safety measure or not. Go unfettered capitalism. Rah.

Greece did not buy CDOs from Goldman. They bought Currency Swaps, the purpose of which was to help hide debt. The Greeks are in this mess in large part because they all vote for lots of Government and then evade the taxes that should pay for it. Bribing civil service unions with other peoples money and those people then refusing to pay hardly seems like an indicting example against Socialism or Capitalism. It would be more powerful applied to Democracy. Some how I doubt anyone wishes to advance that argument.

When asked Americans want a balanced budget with lower or stable taxes and function by function they want the government to spend the same amount or more on everything except the State Department and foreign aid. That Greeks have gotten into trouble based on what I see as the same desires hardly seems like an ideological fact to me.

I don't claim to be that well informed but I thought the problem was that the rig moves and twisted during the accident rupturing piping below where the failsafe cut off switches were located.

That being said, I've always found it entertaining that BP consistently has this kind of shit happen more frequently than Exxon, when Exxon ends up being the target of the anti-oil campaigns.

That's because of the public debacle called the Exxon Valdez. Have a drunk captain wreck a fully loaded oil tanker and you have a bit of a PR problem for decades to come.

I'm no expert - but I understand that there is a $500,000 switch that was not installed at all. Reportedly it would have engaged early in the disaster and would have stopped the flow.

Terrible straw man argument, Krellin. You're basically saying:

1. Country X has a few socialist policies.
2. Country X gets into financial difficulties.
3. Therefore all socialism is doomed to failure.

It's your argument that is "piss poor", to use your childish language - language that doesn't exactly contribute to an informed, intelligent discussion.

To provide a counter-argument based on the terms used by Krellin: France is considerably more socialist than the USA. The impact of the recession hit the USA harder than it did France, and France is now recovering from recession better than many other countries.

According to Krellin's logic, this must mean that..... socialism works!

@tantris - Please tell me y ou are not using that economic powerhouse - Canada - as an example of things going right. Canada is an OK place, but our hospitals here across the border are full of Canadian citizens looking for health care. I know...that's another topic.

But as far as your statement "If a government fails, and it is in a country that is capitalist, it is because of government." You know what destroyed the domestic auto industry in the US? (Which I used to be a part of) Government regulation. the amount of cost built into a car to cover health and safety regulations and then cover the excess expenses of the Unions - which are the epitome of socialism - is unthinkable.

Interesting side note: buddy next door works as an advanced technician for Chrysler design. Said they are bringing over all these "green" Fiat's that are going to save the planet, brink Chrysler back from the brink, blah blah blah. they come over from Europe getting 50+ miles per gallon. By the time they are done adding all the necessary technology to bring the vehicles up to US standards, they are barely breaking 30 miles per gallon. THAT is excessive government regulation DESTROYING capitalism.

NO, I'm not sayiung cars should be death traps....but apparently a car that is NOT a death trap in Europe IS in the US. A car that does NOT pollute in Europe DOES in the US....at the cost of 20 miles per gallon. That added cost for the domestic auto industry comes in teh form of extra, expensive research and development, extra employees to do the R&D, payments to the government to get your approvals, etc.

Japan designs a car for it's market, Europe for it's market, and sells the bulk of it's lower-tech design in the market it dominates and makes money. the US industry has to fight government regulation to even make the first dollar int eh domestic market, let alone even thinking about then exporting the car.

"Capitalist" economies are a rare find indeed because out governments have become so bloated. the US is a hybrid economic market at best - but it sure as hell isn't a capitalist market.

@jamie - piss poor is childish language and takes away from my argument? Pleeeeaase. I hope you dont' ever use any local, cultural terminology then. grow up. Also, your 3 point description of my argument is NOT my argument.

In fact, in a perfect world full of perfect, honorable people and fair governments, Socialism is a great idea. It just never works out like you think it should. It stifles innovation, stifles extra work. Why should I work harder, longer hours to create something new if I can't reap the benefits?

but what I have YET to see is a decent explanation of how Capitalism destroys. I see bland, vacant statements of opinion...where are your examples of unregulated capitalism destroying an economy? it's what BUILT this country.

@Jamie - I have to back krellin on one thing. "Piss poor" is a colloquialism. In fact, there is a common phrase where I'm from that goes "Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" or "The 6Ps". So you need ot not assume a phrase is childish just because it isn't a common colloquialism in your native land.

@ Jamie - "the impact of the recession hit the USa harder than it did France" Uh....well that's just OBVIOUS, since the recession started in the US. Uhhhhh....

Here's the thing about Capitalism that maybe some of you socialists just dont' grasp: it is cyclical, and allowed to function, it rebounds from both its highs AND lows. lets say the housing market goes in the tank. The result? A lot of cheap houses. Next step: investors buy property, fix it up, turn it into rental property, thereby employing construction workers to fix the homes that were previously vacant, and people to maintain the property. this beefs up the building supply industry, who has to hire more people to sell more lumber, paint, etc. You people see one negative act and can't see that when somebody else is allowed to take advantage of the situation things will turn around. now in socialist world, nobody has a profit motive to fix the housing problem, so everyobdy sticks their hand out to the government to demand their assistance. Instead of people adding value every step of the way in the turn-around cycle, instead you have layer after layer of government beurocrat sucking off the government trough, pushing paper while adding no value into the corrective process. Sure, somebdy get's paid, but without the value added process, you get paid from...what? I don't know. ask Greece. Greece is getting paid off by the rest of the EU because all the government workers took all the money, and their were not enough capitalists left to pay the bills. It's really not that tough to figure out.

Off to kid's softball game. Have fun hashing this one out, folks! fun as always! :P

@ krellin: "Why should I work harder, longer hours to create something new if I can't reap the benefits?"

It's a shame you think that simple monetary wealth is the only possible benefit.

What led Greece to what we live now is
1. American companies that influence and control market to maximize their own gains playing filthy games
2. Germany and it's will to increase its power over France in the EU (France investments in banking in Greece is double than Germany's)
3. Economic stats of Greece aren't worse than those of the other countries (Japan owes the same percentage of money, so what?) but they were used as an excuse so that USA infiltrates EU. Spain and Portugal will follow.
4. So the question has nothing to do with political or social systems but with the tactics of some major American companies that have more power than countries and the unwillingness of Germany to do anything to help just to increase its strength over France.
This whole situations is nurtured by the American friendly government that uses it as an excuse to lower the already low wages and cut people's Christmas and Easter bonus salaries...
So, most Greeks are out in the streets and this will never stop as long as you Americans do not take your filthy hands off our country
Prepare to see another major series of Greek riots that will definitely lead to Greek bankruptcy and will create a domino that will affect not only EU but USA as well.
Let everything burn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbH1JsOTInk

@Krellin:
You said:
"You know what destroyed the domestic auto industry in the US? (Which I used to be a part of) Government regulation. the amount of cost built into a car to cover health and safety regulations and then cover the excess expenses of the Unions - which are the epitome of socialism - is unthinkable."

Unions are not government. Also, for some reason, GM was so held down by government regulation that Toyota came in and completely ate their lunch, while under the same regulations, and then taught them how to manage their own plants. Apparently, GM was so held down by government regulation, that they didn't know how to do anything and couldn't create a car someone wanted. Oh wait, sorry, that was just because they were a big company which moved slowly. Ah, I see.

Krellin, I dub thee troll. You are making ignorant declarations and not backing anything up with facts. On top of that, you dismiss anything anyone says. Congrats...

"where are your examples of unregulated capitalism destroying an economy? it's what BUILT this country. "

Really? Were the subsidies that built the canals... and the subsidies that built the railroads... and the subsidies that built the interstate highway system and the internet... were all of these "unregulated capitalism"? How about the unregulated capitalism of Standard Oil - which led to a stifling of competition and an unnatural concentration of wealth due to unnaturally high prices (due to the lack of competition - shoved out of business due to powers of monopoly)... so, when Standard Oil was broken up, was that unregulated capitalism? How about the improvement to the economy that resulted (creating dozens of highly profitable companies motivated once again to compete with each other) - can we credit unregulated capitalism with that? How about the fact that the U.S. has had the best military in the world - both in raw power and in technological and organizational dominance - for many decades... perhaps for close to a century... is that sign of the greatness of America due to unregulated capitalism? I could go on and on... NASA, National Parks (yes, that is part of our greatness), education system (imperfect, but still great), telecommunications satellite technology, the electrification of the west, the damming of the rivers, advances in all fields made in university labs paid for by government grants, etc., etc. I'm not saying that capitalism doesn't have a place... clearly it plays a key part in much of these initiatives. ...but to claim that *unregulated* capitalism is what made America great and is the secret to continued greatness is ridiculous. Unregulated capitalism is dysfunctional. Capitalism needs regulation just as we need police or firefighters... or traffic laws.

"It's a shame you think that simple monetary wealth is the only possible benefit. "

"Simple monetary wealth" is what keeps a roof over my head, food on my table, and a shirt on my back. Working for altruistic motives is a luxury those of us who aren't independently wealthy cannot afford.

@Tantris - GM made and makes plenty of cars people want. The Corvette, Camaro, Trailblazer and Suburban just to name a few from the Chevy stable alone. The problem is GM didn't make cars for the masses. Chevy used to be the people's car and Buick the affordable "luxury" for the upper middle class, but they have become as upscale as Cadillac and Buick.

@Draugnar - I think you basically mean this:

- GM makes cars that only some people want. However their business model is dependent on selling large volumes in vehicle brackets where demand is falling.

- Buick is a redundant brand.

- Cadillac is technically inferior (design is subjective - I'm not a fan) to its competitors and has lagged for the past decade.

Show me a good american non-pickup truck, and I'll show you the superior German vehicle. : )

NVM - I'm starting a car thread.

Maybe people also forget that NO country in the world is socialist. Not Vietnam, not Venezuela, not Cuba, not China, not the USSR after 1918. The problem in Greece was that years of government corruption, tax evasion by the rich and general mismanagement of money by the gov. resulted in the current problem, and now the people are going to pay for something that wasn't their mistake.

Yes, capitalism is cyclical, and could be a case of where the government got too caught up in the boom, came up with bad policies and generally screwed up, and didn't get ready for the collapse (all bubbles burst, this has been seen the 18th century).

@ Tolstoy: "Simple monetary wealth" is what keeps a roof over my head, food on my table, and a shirt on my back. Working for altruistic motives is a luxury those of us who aren't independently wealthy cannot afford."

Way to completely miss my point.

I wasn't arguing that people should work for nothing in return.