Please try to remember that Israeli does not equal Jews. And nice job being civil.

And if the Mexican government was shooting rockets at San Diego, and only 9 Americans were killed, what would Washington do?

That IS civil considering what they've done, and ummmmm last time i checked almost all Israelis were Jews... aside from Religion, which i'll ignore for fear of side tracking, the Israelis need to stop playing BOTH victim and aggressor.

Well that's American sponsored Terrorism, a lot like what The Israelis are doing under the American green light!

My point was not all Jews are Israelis. Saying 'the Jews' are this or the Jews are that would include American Jews as well?

so 9 dead=573?
So you're an Israeli supporter?

nope, but they DO send money to their "homeland" to continue the fight, and most of the Top guys in the Worlds financial system ARE Jewish

I'll start off.

First of all, if you have heard me on the site before, than you probably know my slant- I am an american Jew 100% in blood and belief going back may generations from German, Austrian, and Pole-Russian ancestry.

So yes, I am a huge Zionist, and support Israel (and obviously the US.)

Still, I do feel some compassion for the Palestinians; after all, it used to be the Jews without a home. I think that there are good and bad Palestinians, like all races/nationalities.

Nevertheless, ther ARE plenty of other Arabic/Islamic states, and only one Jewish state, so I do NOT sympathize with them so far as to say that they should be given part of Israel as land for themselves.

Honestly, I really would just like to see them go to other nations (Lebanon, Egypt, etc) or find a way to peacefully assimilate into the Israeli state (but they should NOT be made second-class citizens or have to give up their religion.)

WHO I BLAME:

First, of course, I condemn Hamas. I can see no justification for what they are doing (firing rockets into civilian Israeli areas, killing Israeli families and thus leading the Israelies to retaliate and thus kill Hamas and innocent Palestinians with THEIR weaponry), and if you can give me any kind of defense for them, I'd like to hear it.

In addition, I really think a great deal of Europe, particularly England, France, and Germany, really share a good deal of the blame, if indirectly. Europe as a whole really has condemned this operation by Israel, and yet they will not provide peace-keeping troops to act as a barrier, essentially cooling the heads of both Israeli and Hamas leaders. Germany and France are at the forefront of this, and, as they have panned the US's operations in the region as well (I agree Iraq was a terrible, Bush-laden mistake, but Afganistan is a legitimate war for the US), I do not think much of either of those nations.

England... I respect her, and I really wish that she, the US, and Israel would stop quiblling over petty differences and get along as the Allies they should be. But if England had not muffed handling this way back with the Balfour Declaration....

THE US

I've said many times the US has been fighting the wrong front. We should be there to help Israel; our force there coupled with Israel's would end this in an effective, if inglorious, way, and Obama's cool head can help to assuage the Israelis anger, and perhaps some civilians might yet be spared.

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE

The Palestinians and Israelies are deadlocked- neither will leave the region, both have claims there. The Israelis won the land in battle, and have majority and UN recognition of it being their land, so I do not believe they should leave. Consequently, while I don't think the Palestinians should be forced to leave, and I do think and wish they and the Israelis can just live toegether in peace in Israel as a Jewish State, I realize that is a daydraem, and if one part has to be forced out....... again, all those other states of Islam they have to choose from...... not the best option, but if it came to it, and it was one group or the other, I don't think that the Israelis should (or will be ) the ones leaving.

And yet you have to wonder who is supplying the terror groups Hamas and Hezbollah. Hezbollah, with which Israel fought a similar war with in 2006, began as a regiment in the Iranian military, and is still aided greatly by Iran.

Iran threates Israel's very existance, and is a symbol of and leader in the cruelty and hatred of the terrorism and radicalist movements that have plagued too many Middle East states, and have given good, honest Muslims a bad name.

WHERE THIS HEADED

It will happen eventually- Iran, Syria, Lebanon, N. Korea vs. Israel, the US, England, and S. Korea. Will this incident lead to the shot that begins this World War? It appears a long shot, but Franz Ferdinand was a little spark that inadvertantly started a big war, so always the possiblity.

Suffice it to be said that as long as Israel stays as it is, Palestinans will suffer; as long as they suffer, Hamas will find a way to corrupt the youth and wage war; as long as Israel is fighting in Gaza, Iran can point it's finger and bring the rest of the ME to hate Israel.

Maybe not this time, but sooner or later, one of these incidents WILL set off soemthing, perhaps something Iran says to Israel or vice versa- and then the long awaited war, sadly will come.

Can Israelis and Palestinains co-exist? As much as I'd like to say yes, there is just too much bigotry and history of bloodshed, so for this point in time- no. If Germany and France and the rest of Europe truly want to see a peaceful ending, and can act as peace-keepers and mediators (along with the de-facto mediator in the region, the US, which I love but must admit is slanted towards Israel), then perhaps a grass-roots movement can begin in earnest, and two or three generations from now maybe we'll see a truly unified Israel, with Israelis and Palestinians together arm in arm as countrymen.

But at the moment- eye-for-eye warfare is all that can be foreseen.

First of all, Jew does not equal Israeli- there are non-Israeli Jews, don't drag them into this, let's not start a holy war.

Secondly- if the US WERE attacked by Mexico, just to use the example, not bashing Mexico, and we lost 9 people in an attack that was organized and sponsored by the uniting group-
Yes, I'd attack back as hard as I could, and if 550+ more died in my attack than in the initial one- then I am truly sorry for civilian deaths, but perhaps they shoudn't have started the war.

And if the world is so quick to condemn Israel- then why doesn't someone send in their own troops to play peacemaker like I suggested?

Germany? France? England? All three of you are so quick to condemn and call the Israelis wrong- why not send in your own troops and take matters into your own hands, mediate YOURSELVES if you are so concerned for those 573.

Or are you afraid to take a REAL stance instead of just sitting back and letting others die whilst you simply point out the wrongs?

If I'm a bit beligerent sorry, no offense intended to any Germans/French/Englishman on the boards.

First of all, Jew does not equal Israeli- there are non-Israeli Jews, don't drag them into this, let's not start a holy war.

Secondly- if the US WERE attacked by Mexico, just to use the example, not bashing Mexico, and we lost 9 people in an attack that was organized and sponsored by the uniting group-
Yes, I'd attack back as hard as I could, and if 550+ more died in my attack than in the initial one- then I am truly sorry for civilian deaths, but perhaps they shoudn't have started the war.

And if the world is so quick to condemn Israel- then why doesn't someone send in their own troops to play peacemaker like I suggested?

Germany? France? England? All three of you are so quick to condemn and call the Israelis wrong- why not send in your own troops and take matters into your own hands, mediate YOURSELVES if you are so concerned for those 573.

Or are you afraid to take a REAL stance instead of just sitting back and letting others die whilst you simply point out the wrongs?

If I'm a bit beligerent sorry, no offense intended to any Germans/French/Englishman on the boards.

While I have some serious issues with Israel as the Jewish State
nevertheless:

1. There is no number of dead of my enemy that equal one of mine.
2. If someone was firing rockets into my town from a foreign country I would expect that they would be utterly totally destroyed
3. You do not play by the rules of the enemy
4. One of the reasons that there is peace is that war is so utterly horrible,
the absurdities of the Mid East where both sides have played this dance of self torment. Cast your eyes upon the vision of hell and you may believe in heaven.

I'd say the whole thing is really England's fault. There were plenty of places that a Jewish homeland could have been established that would not have displaced and disenfranchised so many people. Who cares that Jews spent a small fraction of their recorded history living in and around Jerusalem? The fact that Israel had to be established where it is is bullshit. They could easily have taken the Falkland Islands or a small chunk of Nunavut or somewhere else.

Daniel-san

Why on earth do you believe that Hamas-(May their name be wiped out) are innocent? Israel is fighting an entity which has claimed over a thousand lives of civilians. If you lived in Sderot, how would you feel if on average, 9 times a day they were firing rockets at you?
Israel has put up with this for years.

I blame England as well. They gave "Israel" to the Jews and took it from Palestine. How would you like it if some nation took your country and gave it to a religion/race because that nation felt guilty for attrocities committed under their watch when you had nothing to do with those attrocities. England screwed up and the world (the US included) needs to step in and give the Palestinians a safe homeland and Jerusalem needs to be declared a DMZ and safe passage belonging to no nation, but to all nations.

dangermouse, your argument has some sense, but a serious flaw- the whole idea behind a Judaic state is (and was) to have the state/return the Jews to a place that they once were, before the Roman conquest and the Diaspora.

The Falklands- doesn't work.

It DOES have to be a place in the ME; whether or not it had to have been all of the land that was Palestine is debatable, but a moot point at this point, as the land WAS in part, at lest, original Jew-occupied (before the Diaspora) and Israel did win the land "fairly," if there is such a thing, in the 1948 war.

If there are any Englishmen in the house, PLEASE- can you explain or defend why you left us such a mess with the Balfour Declaration?

Israel is a legitimate nation, partially because the Engish promised it to us (though, again, the promised it to the Palestinians), partly because of their historical and Biblical claim, and partially because they DID win the land in the war.

And since then have defended it many times, against overwhelming odds and forces.

First of all, what "Crisis?" This happens at least every two years or so.

There seems to be a lot of finger pointing going around here. I'd say it's everyone's fault. Israel can't get out of the so-called Palestinian Territories because the crazies would just use them as a base to get at Israel proper. On the other hand, the Palestinians genuinely believe their cause is right, regardless of how others may think. They also do have a point about it being their land too, Biblical covenants aside.

The sad truth is the only way there can be peace is if one side wins and the other loses. That's the only way there's ever lasting peace.

Me personally, I'd take Israel over what is literally a terrorist state in Hamas controlled Palestine.

Don`t worry, the problem will be solved in three or fur decades when Muslim Palestinians IN ISRAEL outnumber the number of Jewish and other non-Muslim Israelis by ten-to-one.

The disenfranchised have demographics on thier side... for now...

Ten-to-one? Really?

Now I kinda hope I got the heart from the side of the family that croaks around fifty, not the nonagenarians. I don't wanna be around for that mess!

You're picking an arbitrary point in history and saying that descendants of whoever lived there at the time should get to live there again.

If you're going to follow that logic obi then we should be returning most of France to the Celts (Gauls) who were also driven out by Roman conquest.

I'm not arguing that Israel is not a legitimate nation. We obviously can't go back and rewrite history. I can accept your claim that they "did win the land in the war" but the other two justifications are poor at best.

FYI Here is a copy of the Balfour Declaration for those of you who are interested but too lazy to flip over to wikipedia:

Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour

Erm, I meant two-to-one. Ten-to-one would be nuts :P
and
haha, well you can tell by my vagueness that I don`t know the precise numbers. But if current trends continue, a couple decades will result in Muslim majorities in places quite far removed from eachother, like Israel, southern Sweden and Russia.

The main reason of course, is the significantly lower income strata that the Muslim inhabitants of these countries generally tend to occupy.

Who wants to know a tiny island the size of Ireland (6 mil now) has a 50%+ diapora of over 80 million?


But the reality of the situation won`t be nearly as staggering as current trends suggest I`m sure. As populations grow and as Muslims become more integrated and elevated within the nations they now inhabit, birth rates are likely to drop as well.

After all, were Muslims in Israel to get anywhere NEAR a majority, I`m sure some changes to the `Jewish`state would happen long before that.

Indeed. Were some `descendants` of Iroquois to swoop in and steal my house claiming that `1000 years ago my family lived nearby`.... well, I would be less than receptive to that justification I think.

But I would I would realize that `yes, they do control my house now, and I guess I have to deal with that at face value`. Except for the obvious distinction between Canada and an international community I thin the analogy works pretty well. :P

IIRC, Hamas won the Palestinian elections? And then Gaza came under some serious pressure by Israel and US, right?
Why does the West insist that democracy is played out around the world, and then doesn't recognize the results?

Because Hamas is dangerous and a terrorist organization? And threatens the U.S's allies?

Then why bother with forcing Palestinians to hold elections?

Who knows. Maybe there was faith that they could elect someone who would try to create peace instead of an organization that relys solely on bombing civilians

By winning the elections, Hamas gained the legitimacy to lead people of Gaza strip... to the utter destruction of them or Israel, whatever comes first.
PLO never had that legitimacy ;)

"organization that relys solely on bombing civilians"

Like US Air Force? :D

And that doesn't seem "wrong" to you?