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SandgooseXXI (113 D)
10 Aug 14 UTC
Who's been drinkin
Heeeyyyyu!!!!
1 reply
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
07 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
MAFIA V SIGNUPS HERE #STILLALIVE #HYPEMAN
Details of format below. I'm looking at a later August or early September start
17 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
02 Aug 14 UTC
Enjoy to LoL! Go! GO! GO!
I'll be starting a game of LoL if anyone wants to join. Same username. We also have TS if you're interested.
14 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
Iraqi Yazidis Stranded, Dying of Thirst
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/iraqi-yazidis-stranded-on-isolated-mountaintop-begin-to-die-of-thirst/2014/08/05/57cca985-3396-41bd-8163-7a52e5e72064_story.html
10 replies
Open
ImTheJuggernaut (175 D)
09 Aug 14 UTC
I joined a game but it is broken
There are no chat tabs? like the other games I have joined have chat tabs... I am confused

Also it is called Independence Day 2014 and does not have the normal map
4 replies
Open
ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
Universal income
Recent threads have got me thinking about the desirability of a universal basic income.
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ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
(+2)
The way most universal basic income schemes work is that the government provides everyone in the country with some amount of money that meets the minimum requirements for living, usually either through a negative income tax or (my preferred solution) simply cutting everyone a check. Such a system would entirely replace existing forms of welfare, social insurance, and government incentives (such as tax breaks for things like having kids).

A basic universal income seems to be to be manifestly superior to the system we've got now. Many welfare systems are riddled with corruption, paternalism, and incompetence. The USA has a confusing and overlapping system of over 100 different agencies providing some form of social payments or incentives. People think of "welfare" as a thing the government does for the poor, but by far the most significant benefits go to middle and upper class families, often at the expense of the poor (thinking specifically here of Social Security, a tax on the young and working poor to pay for the relatively more well-off aged).

If you did it the easiest way possible, eliminating all non-business welfare, social insurance, and tax systems, and replacing them with a single monthly check perhaps determined by 150% of the poverty level in the citizen's resident county, then the government could just use the existing Social Security Administration infrastructure. I'd probably add some federally-insured health coverage with a very high yearly deductible, perhaps $10,000; this would allow for a market of relatively low-cost supplemental insurance that high earners or the relatively young and healthy could go without. A sufficiently progressive income tax would solve the moral dilemma of the government paying money to the extremely wealthy (which goes on all the time anyway and nobody seems to care).

I've seen various estimates about how much a program would cost, to being slightly more than the existing American welfare system to costing much less, thanks to the reduced need for bureaucracy and the gains from things like eliminating tax breaks or new efficiencies like decoupling health insurance from employment. But even if it cost slightly more, the gains from streamlining the system and eliminating the human costs of our current system would be well worth it.

As best I can see, the strongest argument against a basic universal income is that it would be practically impossible to put into place. Too many people benefit or think that they benefit from the current system. But given the absolutely messes that constitute the current welfare systems of the big western countries, I think there would be a public interest in it.
pangloss (363 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
I would prefer the second method (cutting everyone a cheque) to the NIT, but either would be leaps and bounds better than traditional welfare.

Additional benefits would be tax code efficiency (and perhaps the scaling back of accounting services!) and the de-stigmatisation of lower-income earners/poor people.

I think the biggest challenge would be optics. People tend to get mad when they think others are getting "free money". And, of course, there are also the job losses associated with dismantling the welfare bureaucracy.
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
08 Aug 14 UTC
A major thing to consider here is the cost of developing programs like this. Regardless there is the cost of infrastructure, salaries, and the cost in jobs. I think we ahold stop trying to find new ways to hand out free money to anyone and should concentrate in bringing jobs back to our country. With jobs comes income, comes spending, comes a healthy economy. We let all of our businesses leave and give them tax breaks for doing it. Meanwhile we put restrictions on domestic business that limits employment and pushes them away. Stop raising minimum wage, stop taxing domestic business, and have a 1000% tax on all non-raw material imports. I can guarantee that apple, Microsoft, Sony, Toyota will all open factories in the US before they lose their largest buying population.
kasimax (243 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
"have a 1000% tax on all non-raw material imports." i think that is more than illegal and even less possible than universal income.
I identify as libertarian and I am 100% on board with both proposals in the OP

There's another component to a guaranteed income that makes it superior to the current system besides reducing human costs and increasing bureaucratic efficiency: economic efficiency. Individuals know their own preferences better than a virtually-anonymous governmental agency and so can be expected to be more efficient in satisfying their desires when given more liquid assets (a check to be spent on anything vs things like food stamps etc.)
pangloss (363 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
CommanderByron, it shouldn't be terribly expensive to "develop" this program. The IRS exists and (presumably) cuts a cheque for tax returns. It's a relatively easy thing to arrange.

"Regardless there is the cost of infrastructure, salaries, and the cost in jobs."
What? I'm not sure how the roads will crumble as a result of basic income.

And your proposal for a 1000% tax on non-raw material imports is anathema to foreign investment and also domestic businesses who trade internationally. It's way more harmful to suddenly pull out of NAFTA than it is to institute a wage floor.
@Bryon

the government has been beating the jobs drum since even before the recession but it's not really coming to fruition. Companies are hiring less and machines are taking over a lot of old positions. You're right that with a job comes income, but wages have been stagnate since the 70s and are actually being depressed down now by corporations. The minimum wage is terrible and not liveable in many places and that's largely why it needs to increase.

A basic income would solve both these problems. It would decouple income from jobs, allowing people to purchase products, invest, start a business, etc. etc. do all the stuff they previously had to gruel through a job and save up money for. It would also allow us to dip further in unemployment as job automation continues and would allow creatives to focus on produce and selling their art instead of having to take on one or two jobs to support themselves.

The fact is manufacturing is not returning wholesale b/c of some perks. Remember what Steve Jobs said in 2012?
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120123/ARTICLE/301239999

A universal income is inevitable and it simplifies a lot of issues we have now. The real question is how and when.
ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
pangloss, I think dismantling the current bureaucracy would be the really hard part. You couldn't do it all at once. It might make it a more expensive carry-over, but maybe give current employees at least one year guaranteed on the transition team, with the explicit understanding that they can leave as soon as they get jobs. If the savings are sufficient, you could also put them into social work-y type jobs and still save money.

CommandByron, if the USA put a 1000% tax on imports, that would lead to the next Great Depression as international trade ground to a halt. Plus, some of those companies also already make a ton of stuff in America. It's not foreigners who are taking the most American manufacturing jobs. It's robots. I am also a little amused that you complain about the government handing out free money but think it should prop up inefficient businesses to create jobs in America.

PE, strongly agreed. This is the big problem with SNAP, as folks have to go through a pointless extra step to turn their WIC money (is that the universal term?) into cash to buy the things they actually want. Also re: libertarian, my thinking is, if the government's going to be doing welfare, it should do it in the most humane and efficient way. Our robot overlord future is going to make the whole idea of 'jobs' obsolete anyway.
President Eden (2750 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
Honestly my real fear with UBI (and probably only) is that I feel like it's almost certainly going to come about as a supplement to existing welfare instead of a replacement. I don't think the US can plausibly afford that; projections for UBI cost are comparable to that of existing welfare systems, which would imply that just adding it onto existing welfare would double the social spending obligations we have, which just seems completely untenable. I would rather the status quo, shitty though it is, over adding UBI to the status quo.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
Expand Earned Income Tax Credit.
phil_a_s (0 DX)
08 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
I have a quick question. Why are some people so opposed to the idea of humanity doing as little work as possible? There is no reason not to build things using robots, and the humanitarian problems of having the Chinese do it can be dealt with. The problem is clearly opposition to people not working. I understand that China's economy is ridiculous, and that it is a humanitarian nightmare, but so was the prior situation. The fact of the matter is, scientific advances have moved a system of 95% of workers in agriculture, to several percent in the developed world. That is massive. The spill-over went into industry, which has undergone a similar effect, although with a lot more outsourcing. I would argue that that is due to technology as well. Now, computers are replacing even the services, recording technology is making creative products massively available.

This is partly aimed at CommanderByron, who I'm pretty sure is trolling us, since Microsoft does software and Sony and Toyota wouldn't come "back" to America, they're from Japan. Apple does manufacture in China, and I would like them to go to the US, because we can't trust them not to oppress the Chinese population. If the US were to commit to this plan, there would be a several-year crisis as all foreign-manufactured products would be unavailable, and it is a diplomatically impossible move, since Europe and East Asia would hate it, and it would violate treaties.
phil_a_s (0 DX)
08 Aug 14 UTC
The earned income tax credit is great for people who want to work, but have to survive day-to-day. I love the EITC. It helps poor people who work, and doesn't reward income earned through illegal activity. When coupled with a sane system of welfare, it is the basis of a working Social Democracy. It does not work in this system. We are literally running out of jobs for humans to do. Everywhere, jobs are kept around, simply because we do not want people to starve when they cannot work. We waste energy because of an opposition to welfare. Don't get me wrong, we do need to expand the EITC, it just won't fix this problem.
@Eden

Every UBI proposal I've seen would set it as a replacement to welfare systems. That's where the whole simplifying bureaucracy point comes from; if you don't have a job, you get the money. You're right in that there's no way we could support both our existing welfare structure AND UBI
Same, Chairman, I'm just thinking about political realities. The bureaucracy behind the existing system provides a lot of "work" for a lot of people and has a lot of pull with a lot of people in power. Addition is always a path of much lesser resistance than replacement
@phil, I personally think work is an integral part of a fulfilling existence... and is something that should absolutely be encouraged as much as possible, for noneconomic reasons. But I'm in agreement with your point nonetheless; after all, it's not like "work" must mean "a 9-5 job with XYZ Inc." It's just got to be something to do that provides you with a sense of meaning. (Which, incidentally, most 9-5 XYZ Inc. jobs DON'T provide. Corporate America can be a pretty soulless existence.)
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
Just for a little perspective... The poverty level for a family of four is $23,850 (http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/14poverty.cfm), and the population of the US is currently about 318,614,000 (http://www.census.gov/popclock/). If we are just going to do this by families of fours, there are approximately 79,653,500 families of four. Per the suggestion of 150% of the poverty level, the US would shell out about $2,849,603,962,500 a year.
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
For comparison, the US Federal Government currently spends $668 billion in welfare. This would be an increase of 4.25 times our current welfare system.
Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang (0 DX)
08 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
so almost the cost of the iraq war then?

Your calculus makes some big presumptions, and you also wouldn't have to pay out to people who already have jobs
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
Whoops, forgot to source the last one, (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/)
ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
If you did the transition smart, politically and administratively, you could replace welfare with a basic guaranteed income right now. But I do worry about future changes - let's keep the basic income, but we need a little something extra for families. And farmers. And old people. Or, we need to take it away from felons or drug addicts, but then we have to put something new together because they'll starve, and while we're at it .... And then it adds and adds and adds.

I like what phil is saying here, it's sort of my background thinking to all this. We're almost at a post-scarcity level right now; many parts of the USA (for example) essentially already are. Once technology advances, you're going to need few people doing a few jobs to keep the economy going. What we've done so far is change cultural expectations about an appropriate work-life balance and level of material consumption; that can't last forever, though.

I also don't think most people are inherently lazy. If nobody had to work to live, you'd have a lot of people who ran daycares or did volunteer nursing or who were artists of some kind, or people who had corporate jobs but only want to work part-time to be with their kids or fund traveling. Plus, most people are going to want to make more money than the poverty level, so it's not like this would lead to everyone just laying about eating opium.
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
What presumptions did I make? And by the way, read the OP, that is exactly what ck said.
"The way most universal basic income schemes work is that the government provides everyone in the country with some amount of money that meets the minimum requirements for living"
ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
KingCyrus, the government spends over $800 billion on Social Security alone. Your neighbors appear to be way off.
ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
Neighbors????

Your numbers appear to be way off. I don't know anything about your neighbors.
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
And Chairman, yeah, about the cost of the Iraq war. PER YEAR. So, about 50 years down the road.... When it is over $100 trillion... Then yeah, that will be 50 times the cost of the Iraq war.
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
@ck, I believe the discrepancy is because I only counted Federal Government expenditures, not state or local.

"The claim about $1 trillion on “welfare” is more interesting and complicated. It shows up in this recent report from the Cato Institute, which argues that the federal government spends $668 billion dollars per year on 126 different welfare programs (spending by the state and local governments push that figure up to $1 trillion per year)."

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/)
@Cyrus

it doesn't really matter what ck said, a practical UBI policy would act as a social safety net and provide for those without income, not supplementing those who already have one. It's a replacement welfare policy, not a raise for everyone in America..

And just from first glance your presumption on just the basic poverty level, family size, cost payout percentage, etc. The program would require a lot more specific math than broad sweeping generalizations. My point about the Iraq war is that even your inflated cost is not particularly outside the means of the country if it wants to move in this direction, especially once it cuts wasteful welfare and social security spending.
ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
These things can be rephrased in such a way as to make everything look bad, but, based on this page's chart:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258

you could replace 58% of the federal government's spending (the Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid/CHIP, and safety net program chunks) with a single Basic Income Administration. If the government spends 3.5 trillion now, then that would be 2 trillion dollars. Given that tax revenues would increase if you also eliminated tax breaks, that you'd reduce government expenditures because of a simplified administration, and that you'd be immediately getting some of this right back by a more progressive tax system, the back-of-the-envelope numbers seem to work.
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
Sorry Chairman, just trying to address what was already said. ck said 150% of the poverty level, the entire population, I was on the conservative side of family size, as the average household is now below 4 people in the US. Yes, it was an estimation, but I would hardly call it inflated. I gave all the information I used, and I used suggestions made within the thread.

Can we "do it?" Yes. Can we pay for it? Yes. But, it will just be tacked onto the national debt, as we aren't currently having a surplus. I have not voiced opinions, I have voiced facts.
KingCyrus (511 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
ck, but don't people at and above the poverty level still get some welfare? So would this completely replace welfare?
ckroberts (3548 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
It depends on how you define "welfare," but, yes, most of what we can call social spending or direct and indirect benefits go to the middle and upper classes anyway. Social Security and Medicare are regressive, tax breaks favor people making the most money. A basic income guarantee would replace all that, if it was going to work.

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52 replies
ssorenn (0 DX)
08 Aug 14 UTC
Fine Art
Any collectors here?

If not a collector, just a lover. Who do you like?
13 replies
Open
THELEGION (0 DX)
08 Aug 14 UTC
(+2)
hey whats vdip is that new?
Some dude just emailed me and challenge me for a 1v1 are there 1v1's? And how did he get my email he apparently knows me from here? This is weird. He says he's been looking at my posts on the forums and he wants to break me. Wtf does that mean.
29 replies
Open
Emperor_Rick (100 D)
09 Aug 14 UTC
Question - I don't understand what I did wrong.
Modern Diplomacy II Map - I'm Spain, I have a fleet Seville, Sea of Gibraltar, and an army in Gibraltar. The UK has a fleet in Morocco and that's it. Our fleets bounced in the South Atlantic Sea, I attempted to convoy my army from Gibraltar to Algeria... but it failed.. So why did it fail if the other player didn't touch my unit in Gibraltar & the Sea of Gibraltar?
1 reply
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
09 Aug 14 UTC
Second Amendment Scoreboard....
Check out @MiltShook's Tweet: https://twitter.com/MiltShook/status/474715666218381313
0 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
07 Aug 14 UTC
UK Government to make unemployed people wait FIVE WEEKS for benefit
http://www.tuc.org.uk/social-issues/poverty-social-exclusion/welfare-and-benefits/tax-credits/newly-unemployed-and

The UK Government continues its attack on the poor.
48 replies
Open
kasimax (243 D)
30 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
anyone up for a game of nomic?
from wikipedia: "nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. in that respect it differs from almost every other game. the primary activity of nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. even this core of the game, of course, can be changed."
977 replies
Open
THELEGION (0 DX)
07 Aug 14 UTC
oh no
I can't decide to buy a pact of blue berry waffles or a pact of blue berry pancakes I only have enough money for one. Which one should I pick!
51 replies
Open
FineRedMist (108 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
Non-Israeli Zionists
I'm still working my way through some of the other threads where the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict is being discussed, but I want to start a thread wherein I hope to find some clarity on a question that's been bugging me BADLY: If you support Israel, why do you do so?
102 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
05 Aug 14 UTC
Lamb
Meat eaters: do you eat lamb?
37 replies
Open
THELEGION (0 DX)
07 Aug 14 UTC
compare and contrast
Between meepmeep and me.
39 replies
Open
mowglee (101 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
How to substitute a player with a replacement player
In our game, we need to substitute Russia with another player. How do we do this?

Link to the game is
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=145298
1 reply
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
05 Aug 14 UTC
12 Hour Phase World Game On
gameID=145433
All Messaging Points Per Supply Center
7 Days Left 12 More
12 Hour Phases (5 D) Bet
12 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
How many Russian speakers, or Slavic people are there on this site?
I'm one.
66 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
01 Jul 14 UTC
MAFIA IV SIGNUPS HERE :HYPE: :TRENDING: :USA:
cause ain't nobody gonna read 400+ posts in the general thread to find signups lololololol
POST HERE IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PLAYING MAFIA IV
VashtaNeurotic is the GM for this game, format TBD
180 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
07 Aug 14 UTC
Looking for an html foto-slider widget that cycles through all pictures in a folder,
, rather than specific pictures.
Anyone knows something that would work? Free is best of course.
17 replies
Open
dirge (768 D(B))
02 Aug 14 UTC
Unofficial weather thread
Where we get to talk about how our weather is, how we feel about it, and how we'd like it to be.
32 replies
Open
jimbursch (100 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
Glossary update
I'm working on a WebDip glossary here:
http://jimbursch.com/webDiplomacy/glossary.php
Feel free to suggest additions and/or changes.
10 replies
Open
THELEGION (0 DX)
06 Aug 14 UTC
the holocaust class.
I hate it when people say "oh how could the local population let the nazis do all these bad things to the jews."...really?
93 replies
Open
Vikesrussel (839 D)
07 Aug 14 UTC
Question
Can you support an enemy unit into your own unit to force it to move(blow up)?
North Sea supports Sweden into Norway
North Sea and Norway are Italian and Sweden is Turkey.
(those are examples, as you can see I use things not prob going to happen
34 replies
Open
FineRedMist (108 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
Little colored bars?
When clicking another country's tab in the game interface, what is the significance of the stacked, colored bar above the messaging interface? The colors seem to be the colors of the various countries, but I can't figure out what they represent.
12 replies
Open
shadow2 (2434 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
Ross Ice Shelf - Marie Byrd Land
How do support orders work with these territories and their surrounding territories?
9 replies
Open
jimbursch (100 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
Glossary update
I am working on a WebDip glossary here:
http://jimbursch.com/webDiplomacy/glossary.php
Feel free to suggest additions/changes.
2 replies
Open
huntruba01 (100 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
Live Modern Diplomacy Game
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=145596

Should be good. It is called Crimea
1 reply
Open
Gordon (326 D)
06 Aug 14 UTC
New High-Stakes Slaughter
Come and get it

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=145594
0 replies
Open
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