Its like a blaming the them.

Where are you going with this...?

Yeah, I mean obviously putting them in ghettos, kicking them out of their jobs and all the stuff the locals knew about without question was okay and should have been tolerated. Obviously locals could have no idea that the Jews may be being persecuted.

Ah, I see, posted too early.

Yeah, I had a "Jewish-American" Literature class...which I put in quotes because it was really the professor's excuse to trot out her thesis on how American Jews act and think...and according to her class, fucked up sexual repression/rape and obsession over the Holocaust makes up most of the Jewish-American identity.

(And yet, oddly enough, mapleleaf WASN'T professor of this class.)

But yeah...frankly, I think a lot of classes do a poor job covering the Holocaust, from all vantage points.

It's wasn't there fault it happened. If you look at the facts of the nazis
1 they would kill everybody if 1 person rebelled. Exp a french resistance fighter blew up a rail road in vichy france a ss squad was sent out to investigate it they went through 3 french towns and slaughtered everybody. True story.

thelegion, i bet you don't live neither germany nor austria?

well i'm going to stay out of this argument, but it's good to know that if you were in nazi germany you would have been like 'time to keep my head down and wait this one out'. maybe rat out a few jews to the authorities to get in the good books.

2 the conquered people saw their entire army destroyed by the nazis there moral would be very low after that point. Plus if they wanted to rebel they would need supplies and the nazis loved giving everybody that wasn't a german unfair rations.

"It's wasn't their fault it happened"

And this is what I mean when Holocaust classes do a shitty job of teaching this--

Frankly, I think you have to walk a fine line when considering the issue of blame for the German citizens.

On the one hand, they DID kinda sorta allow Hitler and the Nazis to come to power, THELEGION...and plenty of them were happy to see the Jews and other peoples suffer...

On the other hand, there are many notable cases of Germans trying to help their neighbors.

Unlike Professor I Went to Berkley and Thus Know All, I don't think you can wrap the whole issue of blame up with a bow and easily compartmentalize German citizens as innocent or guilty.

im not saying they shouldn't of done something I'm just piss at people who think its so easy to save your neighbors from harm its not and they knew that.

THELEGION, the holocause started before the destruction of the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe.

The Wansee conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference) took place before the defeat at Stalingrad.

thelegion, the thing is, the nazis didn't simply rise to power out of nowhere. there already was a hostile attitude towards jews. the nazi party was simply a manifestation of this phenomenon.

And plus I have many jewish friends thank you very much they even agreed with me. People will do anything to protect either themselves or their families they knew the nazis were pure evil and yes some did do something about it. But it was about trying to survive you try living in a conquered nation living under a enemy banner praising their leader I know for a fact the germanys and the austrias towns that had con and death camps should be punished but if you blame the french or the poles just shut up and look at what they had to put up with saying its their fault. They couldn't do anything about it what you think all the farmers in a little polish village are going to charge at a nazi outpost with pitch forks no because they would be gunned down. They lived in fear. Fear is what the nazis lived off of . And that's why they couldn't do anything. When they were under german rule they lived in fear when the allies came the were very happy but anybody can masks the truth they were still in fear because they knew what was going on they knew the world would blame them and yet nobody considers them the victims too.

wait a sec - who is blaming the french or polish people?

Who in the right mind blames the French or Polish for the Holocaust? The large majority of the German citizens had no idea this was going on.

I know the nazis didn't just start out of the blue but if people saw what tge nazis did to their own people that weren't jews of course they would not try to fight them that's why a country has a army to fight for them to people you destroy said army and rule with a iron fist what are the options for those people? Try to fight, or submit. You don't have alot of options and you don't have alot of resources. Your screwed either way until the allies break through.

thelegion, what are you talking about now? the germans/austrians or the french/polish?

My classmates would blame everybody that it was their fault that they let the Holocaust happened I'm saying they are wrong. That's all I'm trying to say.

The basic thesis of THELEGION is that the Hitlerite regime was responsible, not the population. He's pointing to the collaboration in France and Poland as other examples of people, fearful for their lives, who helped the occupation authorities round people up.

At least that's how I interpret it.

Yes thank you putin you can't blame them if somebody has a god damn gun to your head and you know they are trigger happy. You don't have much options.Either you fight to the bitter end or you die as a slave or you die knowing you were a slave. they are victims too its not just the people in the holocaust.

Look at the bigger picture of it! Jeez.

alright. i still don't see where you're going with this. yeah, i think everyone agrees that they were also victims. what do you want, then? did you just want this confirmed?

If they had to sell somebody to feed their family people will do it to survive. War brings out the monster in all of us its not something knew. My question is why are people still so shock by this.

shocked by what exactly?

Nobody is shocked here.

I know its my classmates im piss with them they won't shut up about it I have to go to this at 7 am mon-fri and listen to how amaze they are. did you not pay attention in history class yesterday!

There is a difference between saying morally something should have been done, and saying that people in general would do something different.

"Exp a french resistance fighter blew up a rail road in vichy france a ss squad was sent out to investigate it they went through 3 french towns and slaughtered everybody."

I'd like to see the source for this.

A big chunk of the SS stationed in France were transferred to Poland in the middle of the war, because quite frankly very little resistance was going on. The Milice could handle them.

While I still hold strongly to the principle that inaction is compliance with oppression, there are plenty of people that are very quick to pass judgment on those who fail to act to resist oppression without a recognition of the difficulty that such resistance requires, yes. Be wary of those who are quick to condemn.

I don't think you'll find very many of them here, though. I would guess as your classmates grow up they'll recognize those difficulties too.