+1 for both

if you have a request, you should use words like "please" and "thank you". since zaza, and now you, couldn't be bothered to use either, and state your requests as demands, i'll start my own threads for games if i feel like it.

i do agree with you on not posting cheating accusations on the forum.

Please do not start your own thread for live games trip. Thank you

:) see. being polite isn't that hard.

thanks goldfinger. i'll do that.

I hope you won't trip - if you've got a live game the thread is both the best way to get people and to not annoy others unnecessarily. I would have said Zaza's language was not rude, merely functional and not consciously polite.

i do use the thread, figle.

unfortunately, very few people are consciously polite these days. it's really a shame.

*or unconsciously.

I've never had an unconscious person be rude to me (unless you count the one who didn't answer my questions)

yeah, ok, rlumley


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:P

1000 posts!

Why can't we post cheating allegations? I know it's considered bad form but bearing in mind that one of the tennants of justice is not only that it is done, but it is seen to be done. Why not post accusations in a designated thread, this allows others to add to the evidence, and allows people to clear their names. If this annoys people pehaps we could accommodate their issues by using 1 thread and not listing any names in the title so that people who want to remain blind to the trials going on can remain blind.

because this sin't a jury of our peers. the mods have the tools to investigate and their tools are far superior to any allegations. additionally, they can affect ongoing games and if the accusation proves false, the damage done is irreparable.

oh, and the mods have said not to do it.

Maniac

I enjoy an old fashion witch hunt as much as the next guy but:

1. Posting accusations is a very inefficient way for mods to deal with these issues.
2. It means the mods would constantly be justifying their actions to people who have significantly less information.
3. It isn't fair to the (many) wrongly accused people who would be slandered.
4. It creates a hostile community.

That is why it is against the rules to publicly accuse people.

I completely agree with abgemacht. He/she sums it up nicely.

Abgemacht

1 - inefficiency arguement just doesn't hold much water, the mods can read a forum posts as easily as reading an email and even it if were inefficient it may be a small price to pay to ensure justice.
2 - The mods could give a ruling and then comment no further, they don't have to justiy themselves at all
3 - people call one another all sorts on here (i have to look up the meaning of some of the insults) but we seem to allow everthing but cheating accusations. This seems bizarre to me. The accused are perfectly free to respond to any accusations if they choose to do so.
4 - Creating a hostile community, have you seen what some people say on here, in game and in the forum?

You don't seem to have adressed the possible benefits of public discussions about alleged cheaters.

1 - It may discourage the any cheating in the first place
2 - It allows people who suspect something is wrong in one game to discuss their suspicions with other potential victims.
3 - It could lead to a better understanding of the rules, people who bend the rules may undrstand why this annoys people if those affected can have their say
4 - victims can see that something is happening

Also, what about the victims, i know it's only a game, but people who cheat should be brought to book, if w make it easier for victims to report they may stay with the site rather than leaving with perceived injustices going unpunished.

While I see your points, the fact of the matter remains that people are flippant, angry and immature about a loss at times, and will indeed act on those emotions, casting aspersions and cheating accusations to be forever scribed in the minds of whoever happened to read the thread at the time. Reputation is everything in a small community of people who uphold the rules and avoid meta.

Now tell me, if someone accused you of cheating, and someone read a few posts about it, but say it got to page four where you accurately refuted all claims, but the said person reading through the posts never reached your argument, and was just lazy, (like we all are) and summed you up to be a cheater...how would that feel? It is a lot harder to claim not to be a cheater, than it is to claim someone is a cheat.

Now I do agree this site needs something to promote good sportsmanship, and discriminate accordingly against cheaters, while making it VERY clear what cheating is from the get go. Many people are new and haven't a clue what meta/cheating is.

It's not that big a deal. Sure people should email the mods, but not everyone is a regular forum poster, and thus not everyone is aware of the etiquette.
In of lot cases if there is a misunderstanding it is usually sorted out pretty quickly. The number one issue is people not understanding that it is possible to support another power in gunboats.

People call each other what they want in the forum, and the general consensus is that anything goes. But for some reason discussing cheating is a no-no. You can accuse some one of being a pedophile - apparently. You can being generally abusive in anyway you want - apparently. BUT if you dare suggest that some games are not above board SOME people find this offensive.

There are actually cheats believe it or not. Trying to hush it up is ridiculous.
The upside of openly discussing it is that other people may go "hey - you know what that player was acting fishy in my game" and so on. Cheats have been caught this way.
And if you are innocent it is usually pretty obvious and half-a-dozen people will come to to your rescue, and the whole thing is cleared up.
I really doubt that anyone has had their reputation permanent tarnished who didn't deserve it.

First rule of webDiplomacy: You do not accuse people of cheating in the forum.
Second rule of webDiplomacy: You DO NOT accuse people of cheating in the forum.
Third rule of webDiplomacy: Someone gets 18 centers, the fight is over.
Fourth rule: Only one account to a person.
Fifth rule: Don't carry stuff from past fights to future fights. One fight at a time, fellas.
Sixth rule: No hacking, no server overloading.
Seventh rule: Fights will go on as long as they have to.
And the eighth and final rule: If this is your first night at webDiplomacy, you have to fight.

Actually, of the people accused on the forum, I'd say about half are innocent (just off the top of my head).

and re pedo comment: [Almost] everyone wanted that thread to be removed and it was agreed that it was unfair and unreasonable.

Okay then please disregard my last post.

I think the real issue is that the rules are not stated clearly anywhere on the site. They are buried in a section called "Rulebook," which is horribly ambiguous.

The page itself, however, is pretty good. It really should be presented when people make an account with an "I agree to terms" checkbox. Then, we at least would know everyone's *seen* them.

@Eden

That was wonderful.

@eklade - I have been accused of cheating in the forum. Surely everyone who is so against accusations being posted on the forums remembers this? No, I thought not, you see I think people have an inbuilt sense of fair play and will treat accusations to be just that accusations, they are aware that there are sore losers out there and won't allienate or ostrocise people based on an accusation.

@Maniac

My Points:

1) So, instead of having nicely arranged threads in gmail, where we can take notes, keep each case in one place, etc, you want that to be replaced with a giant thread in the Forum, which is impossible to organize? Maybe if I was getting paid my usually salary to be a mod...

2) I suppose.

3) So, something is bad, so we should make it worse? Also, cheating is a bannable offense, so it is clearly a separate issue.

4 - Again, because as situation isn't ideal, that means we should just make it worse?

Your 4 :

1 - No it won't as there is no evidence that most cheaters frequent the forum.
2 - There is nothing preventing people from doing this privately, nor is it particularly necessary, imho.
3 - Again, no, as there is no evidence that most cheaters frequent the forum.
4 - This is already true. They can go back to their old games and see that players have been banned. Also, we try to follow up with people who email us.

@abge - your points are noted.

1. How about the mods only investigating if a nnumber of people raise an accusation against another member. This would save mods work rather than inreasing it, you will be expected to give back half your current mod salary of course.

3 & 4. I don't accept that accusing someone of cheating is that bad, as i pointed out to Eklade, i've been accused in a forum post and I haven't noticed people refusing to play with me. People will not think that someone is guilty just because someone accuses them of something, have a little more faith in our fellow members. Has anyone ever refused to play with someone because someone else has accused them in a forum post?

@Maniac

1) So, you want us to solve fewer cases? That seems like the exact opposite of what we should be doing

3&4) But you are a very visible member of the forum. You already had a reputation before these accusations, no? Many people have had games ruined because they've been falsely accused, causing people to turn on them in-game. It gives the accuser a significant advantage and is a serious form of metagaming.

So dispite the current rules "Many people have had games ruined because they've been falsely accused, causing people to turn on them in-game." wouldn't this suggest that the present system doesn't work, if we had a thread whereby accusations are open and either supported or otherwise by the community and investigated openly by the mods then maybe less games would be ruined. Also what about people who have invested time and effort into games and had them ruined because people haven't reported their suspicions?

re 1. I and I assume others would be happy for you guys only to investigate accusations that have more than 1 complainant, this could shift out the malisious accusations.

Perhaps that was worded poorly.

Of the people who have been accused publicly, many have been affected poorly. Considering all games, most do not contain cheaters or cheating accusations. So, no, I don't see it as an issue, but I do see it as proof that having more public accusations would cause more problems.

I'm pretty sure that people would be annoyed if their complaint was ignored because it wasn't seconded.

The accusation has an instant damaging effect yet it takes time for the mods to reseasrch and do their due diligence to confirm or disprove the cheating. If we add in the requirement that the accusation requires backing, then thats even more time for the accusation to affect the ongoiong games.

Also, requiring multiple accusations means that an anon game where a multi has 6 of 7 spots will be seen to completion and probably never get followed up on.

And Maniac, people with a solid reputation in the forum will generally be seen as trustworthy and the accusation be assumed to be bogus. But players who aren't as well known in the forums (Agent K whenhe first started posting for instance) may find themselves unfairly fighting off a witch hunt. I know that Agent K was innocent this last go round, but his past history of cheating and being banned for it caused me (and others) to paint a target on his head. It's human nature when you don't know someone by reputation to assume guilt and take steps to enact justice even when they haven't yet been found guilty. The old west had lynch mobs. Salem has witch trials. And we'd have our own version if things were implemented as you want.

I was the one that posted the dreaded "cheating accusation" in the forum, for which I apologize -- I had NO IDEA the uproar that it would cause. In my own defense, however, let me say that the first comment by LJ TYLER DURDEN, "it's not that hard to email the mods..." I disagree. Perhaps I am blind, and not as savvy of a web surfer as I thought, because no where that I could see is there a blatant and conspicuous "EMAIL MODERATORS" button or link. I looked in the "Help" section as I thought that would be the logical local for something of the kind -- nothing. Secondly, on other Diplomacy sites potential Meta-Gamers/Multi-Accounters are posted in the forum (as someone suggest) in their own sticky thread to which everyone, including the accused can respond. That way, it is easy to run a search of the thread and see if any of the people in an impending game might be accused, convicted, and/or exonerated.

Again, I apologize for any consternation that my breach of forum etiquette may have cause some of you -- it was never my intention to be so boorish, only to see a cheater be brought to justice. However, I do have to say I agree with another poster on the subject of "public humiliation" and the power that it has on enforcing the groups morals and rules. There is a difference between emotionally lashing out at someone that out foxed you, especially in a GB game, and taking the time to look up the time and date of their becoming a member, and their game histories.

Anyway, if someone could please provide me with an email address for the Mods, I won't trouble you guys anymore with this topic.

@ michigan man: goto rulebook in the help section. look for "contacting a mod/admin". all the info you need is there.

@MM

[email protected]

It was within the first three replies to your original post.

And I do agree with you. "Rulebook" needs to be changed to "Site Rules" and the mod email needs to be in the FAQ, since, you know, it is a frequently asked question.

@ Trip/abgemacht

thank you...sorry for the inconvenience -- it was far from intentional.

@Michigan

Please don't feel like you're being singled out. The reason people were so terse with you is that we get one of these at least once a week. You are not the only person to make this mistake.

@abgemacht,

thanks for salving my chaffing! I got an angry PM from someone -- I know Diplomacy brings out a great deal of passion in player (myself included to be sure) but coming into PM me is ALL CAPS and with multiple exclamation points is a bit excessive...no? Anyway, thanks!

VEXLORD IS A CHEATER!!!!!

*VEXLORD and vexlord have been banned for multiaccounting.

IMO, there should be a "Report" button at the top, which would open a form to e-mail the mod account. I barely know PHP, and *I* could code that.

But, seriously, if we're going to keep this alive, maybe we should start over with a nicer (and more helpful) one?

Mob justice doesn't work Maniac. See Monty Python and the Holy Grail for more evidence!

Damn it figle! Use my polite thread!

...please...

Certainly :)