but when cornered mujus has to turn this on others, its my lack of faith, not his lack of evidence and understanding that is the issue here of course

"When I talk to religious fundies in real life this is always what blows their minds. I don't even believe their prophesies exist. You have to understand that your fore-bearers from the disciples onwards have been actively searching for prophesies in earlier books that prove Jesus was messiah. The "prophesies" you all take for granted are weak if they exist at all without translations."

I guess I'm not a fundy because this doesn't blow my mind at all. Every day intelligent people look at the same evidence and draw different conclusions. Recognizing that is part of growing up. Another thing I've noticed is that there are really smart believers and really smart unbelievers, and there are some really dumb believers and some really dumb unbelievers. Somehow that makes me think that religious conviction isn't entirely about logic, and maybe we shouldn't resort to insulting one another's intellect every time we disagree. That's not aimed at SC or Mujus, just sort of a general plea for graciousness in the public arena.

וַיֹּאמֶר קַח־נָא אֶת־בִּנְךָ אֶת־יְחִֽידְךָ אֲשֶׁר־אָהַבְתָּ אֶת־יִצְחָק וְלֶךְ־לְךָ אֶל־אֶרֶץ הַמֹּרִיָּה וְהַעֲלֵהוּ שָׁם לְעֹלָה עַל אַחַד הֶֽהָרִים אֲשֶׁר אֹמַר אֵלֶֽיךָ׃

Ok, so your first accusation was that I said that BECAUSE Jesus spoke on the Passover, that the events of the original Passover pointed to him. Your second is that I'm misinterpreting the Bible to shore up my faith. I guess it's like Jesus told Nicodemus about having to be born of water (physical birth) and the spirit (spiritual birth, hence "born again")--You have to see the spiritual meaning behind the events of the Book of Genesis. Literally, Abraham didn't sacrifice Jesus. Literally, Jesus isn't a sheep. Literally, Jesus wasn't a burnt offering. But spiritually, this story prefigures the Messiah being provided by God as an offering for our sins. If you are really ready to hold your own beliefs up to the bright light of reason, you'll be able to see that there is a large preponderance of evidence that points to Jesus as the Messiah--so much that it would be impossible to counterfeit, and so much that can't be just coincidence. Yes, Jesus knew he was the Messiah, and he knew what he was doing, and he purposely fulfilled prophecies--but in the way they were meant to be fulfilled, not in the way the Hebrew temple rulers were expecting. If he had wanted to be acclaimed King of the Jews, he had the opportunity, but told his followers that he was King of a different kind of kingdom.

I hope the Hebrew pasted in ok.... Another interesting point about that story is that Abraham was willing to give up his own son because God asked. I'm sure that would set Obi off, but there's a parallel in God being willing to give up his own son as a sacrifice for sins--but God provided that sacrifice.

Hebrew quote from
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=22&t=NLT#conc/2

Draug,

Yep. Did you read my post? If you did, you'll have noticed that I agreed that it was a very common thing and therefore little could be concluded from it; and that, indeed, I had to postulate a hypothetical to discuss what it would mean for it to have been a prophecy fulfillment. So not only did you state the obvious, you stated what I just had. ;-)

@SC,

Sorry, I just saw this afterward:

"Well f you believe in god everything is divine action. But that wasn't Mujus point (which he seems to have dropped) which was because the episode of the last supper happened to occur on Passover, it means Passover is a portent to Jesus."

There's the thing, I think -- I think it's fair to say Passover is a _portent_ to Jesus, but that's different (to my mind) from saying Passover is some kind of prophecy that Jesus fulfilled. It's more like foreshadowing, or a pattern that can be appreciated once one already believes. I can certainly imagine a particular person in a particular instance finding the parallel sufficiently striking that it encouraged faith in Jesus, but it would be more because of a similar pattern / repeated motif sort of thing than a prophecy per se.

I think that's exactly what Passover is--a foreshadowing of the Messiah.

"If you are really ready to hold your own beliefs up to the bright light of reason, you'll be able to see that there is a large preponderance of evidence that points to Jesus as the Messiah"

There is nothing that points to Jesus as the Messiah. If you held your own beliefs up to the light, as you easily could have in the way I laid, you would see how ridiculous your claims are. But you won't, you are a coward. You will continue to stay in the bubble of your belief and will avoid anything that challenges it.

"
There's the thing, I think -- I think it's fair to say Passover is a _portent_ to Jesus, but that's different (to my mind) from saying Passover is some kind of prophecy that Jesus fulfilled. It's more like foreshadowing, or a pattern that can be appreciated once one already believes. I can certainly imagine a particular person in a particular instance finding the parallel sufficiently striking that it encouraged faith in Jesus, but it would be more because of a similar pattern / repeated motif sort of thing than a prophecy per se."

And I assume Jason and the golden fleece is some more foreshadowing right? The birth of Christ forshadowed a battle of the American Independence. This is completely absurd, and despite Mujus blabbering, exactly what he said.

Grasping at straws and criticizing others for being closed minded, his whole game.

Why exactly aren't you criticizing him for being closed minded like you did me Semck?

"That's not aimed at SC or Mujus, just sort of a general plea for graciousness in the public arena. "

I have to be gracious when someone constantly denigrates my religious tradition and calls me closed minded merely because I don't accept his faith? Please.

"I hope the Hebrew pasted in ok.... Another interesting point about that story is that Abraham was willing to give up his own son because God asked. I'm sure that would set Obi off, but there's a parallel in God being willing to give up his own son as a sacrifice for sins--but God provided that sacrifice."

Lets not even go into the fact that all these 'parallels' are absolutely moot because the writers of the new testament knew all of the tropes in the old testament and would easily have replicated them. Its the only book most people wknew, these stories were the foundation of all life, are we really going to treat these authors like they were in a vacuum from the New testiment. I know this logical argument will get me nowhere however. And I doubt anyone made the passover parallel in the first place because the parallel is so completely asinine. The product of 2000 years of like minded people sitting around and validating their lives.

I didn't call you closed minded at all, SC. I disagreed with a specific statement you made about objectivity. I don't think somebody is closed minded just because they say something I disagree with.

Why didn't I disagree with Mujus? Well, first of all, I didn't go back and reread the (fairly long) posts that provide the greater context. You made quite an insulated little post that I thought was both self-contained and wrong, so I responded to that. I later pointed out that I might have misread even that, and apologized if I had done so.

I also made it clear that I do disagree with the Passover being a prophecy of the type that would convince somebody, or exactly a prophecy at all, so if Mujus said otherwise, I do disagree with him. I still don't know if he did, because I still haven't gone back and read the context.

Satisfied?

Not really, if you read Mujus posts you would clearly see I am not the only one claiming objectivity here. Yet I am the only one called out for it of course.

Your mistake is your brief posts.

figured that out when i started arguing against obi

Point me to that post if you want, anyway. The thing is, claiming to be right based on evidence (even wrongly -- as may or may not be the case) is different than saying "it's the difference between objectivity and grasping at straws." I mean, that's kind of begging for dissent, especially if it doesn't make its context-dependence clear.

Of course you can be Jewish and believe in the Jewish Messiah, but to do so you might have to go back to the primary sources of the Torah as well as the historical, poetic, wisdom, and prophetic books of the Hebrew scriptures rather than rely on secondary interpretations as found in the Mishnah etc. Here's a chapter from one of the major prophets, Isaiah, that speaks clearly about the sins of the world being laid on one man:

Isaiah 53, New Living Testament

1 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the LORD revealed his powerful arm?
2 My servant grew up in the LORD’s presence like a tender green shoot,
like a root in dry ground.
There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,
nothing to attract us to him.
3 He was despised and rejected—
a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.
We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.
He was despised, and we did not care.
4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows [fn1] that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the LORD laid on him
the sins of us all.
7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
yet he never said a word.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 Unjustly condemned,
he was led away. [fn2]
No one cared that he died without descendants,
that his life was cut short in midstream. [fn3]
But he was struck down
for the rebellion of my people.
9 He had done no wrong
and had never deceived anyone.
But he was buried like a criminal;
he was put in a rich man’s grave.
10 But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
because he exposed himself to death.
He was counted among the rebels.
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.


Footnotes:
53:4 Or Yet it was our sicknesses he carried; / it was our diseases.
53:8 Greek version reads He was humiliated and received no justice. Compare Acts 8:33.
53:8 Or As for his contemporaries, / who cared that his life was cut short in midstream? Greek version reads Who can speak of his descendants? / For his life was taken from the earth. Compare Acts 8:33.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=53&v=1&t=NLT#conc/10

A Christian who is at all educated in the roots of his faith and the teachings of the New Testament would never denigrate the Jewish religion or scriptures. But there may be Jews who are not fully aware of the roots of their own religion, just as there are Christians who are not aware of the roots of theirs. Santa, I'm sorry if this position gives you offense.