@ottovanbis: Does Afghanistan have gold/diamonds/oil?

no afganistan is the shitiest country in the world its only profitable trade is heroin and that is of no use to the US goverment. Afganistan is really the most uncounquerable country in the world because of its geography this also makes it important. Its smashed between Iran Pakistan and former Soviet holding of the Middle east and has a border with China and its pretty much the shit in between all of the good stuff. so why is it so unconquerable ?(USSR, Alexander the great, ?USA?). What is there to conquer you can rde through the whole country without being attacked or stoped once but the Taliban controls 80%? the fact is there will always be a cave and always a small town and always another place to hide and the fact that Kabul is pretty much the only significant city in the whole country doesn't give the goverment to much control

Greece is part of NATO and sent 145 to Afghanistan. Afghanistan is an international effort and the war's legitimacy is recognized by everyone, including NATO and the UN.

Get a grip hellalt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force#Contributing_nations

Oh, 145 to Afghanistan, wow, what a great contribution of the Greeks, Thucidides...

The whole war's a fog to me... should we have gone to Iraq? No, but I'll admit it, I was one of those revenge-blinded folks who just didn't care, wanted to see we the US kick some ass, anyone's ass, after 9/11...

Afghanistan... I don't know, the place is a mess, and really that's the whole Middle East. Always has been that way- it was a violent mess in Biblical times, in Alexander's time, the Roman era, the eras of the great Arab states, when the French and English and others staked their claims, when the US finally came for some oil, the coming of Israel, the USSR, now...

All I want is Bin Laden brought to justice, he and his followers- not all of Afghanistan, just that circle of Bin Laden's and the Big Turban himelf.

And I hear news we were in range and let him go, perhaps...

It doesn't take a Jew like me to say- OY... :/

Denis, don't say Afghanistan is the shittiest country in the World unless you've been there.
I've been there and they are really a nice people, the normal ones that is.
Much nicer than most Westerners i have met.
Further more, they also are the richest country in the region as far as Minerals go, and newly discovered Oil supplies by the Yanks and Russians, probably explain why America is increasing troops there in all reality- to control another OIL rich country.

Obama deserves NO PEACE award, lol. Let's go invade his terrorist birthlands.
And all one need do to find that Afghanistan has said assets, is GOOGLE

"Coming of Israel"?

Israel was formed by force, it's no wonder the middle east is a mess.

Hey, yes, it was armed by force, but don't you blame the mess on Israel.

First, it was already a mess when Israel was formed (Arab state vs. Arab state, Sunni vs. Shiite...)

Second, yes, it's formation caused a HUGE and ongoing mess, but I still stand behind the decision to give Israel its land- I ALSO think that the Palestinians today deserve land, too, so while I am a Jew and a Zionist, I think both sides have done right and wrong, and both deserve land, and must make concessions to each other.

I dont think walking to new york and saying you have to move out such and such peoples are going to live here now , works very well

"Obama deserves NO PEACE award, lol. Let's go invade his terrorist birthlands."

You want to invade Hawaii? You don't like Hoola(?) dancers?

"I realize that for example, ireland, is a good country to be in due to lack of external enemies, though the 'real IRA' (the provos are the actual IRA, the 'real ira' i have 0 respect for) within the past year did commit a bombing" - yeah, Ireland compares well on external policies, which is unfair, i oculd go on and on about what is wrong with this country, but nobody here cares much about that rant... Lack of external enemies has come due to peaceful interaction with the UK over the past century. Some dissident republican terrorists have failed to commit any bombings in the past two years. (whether it was cIRA of rIRA, continuity or real, respectively) Their attempts have been foiled by security forces on both sides of the border.

"If Ireland weren't so Catholic/involved in hating/bombing England's hold of northern Ireland with terrorist attacks, I would say it's peaceful. England's alright, isn't it? How bout Spain? Canada?" - Caholic? there are now about 30-40 indivduals involved in an attempted bombing campaign against the occupation, Northern Ireland has it's own devolved assembly, who are now discussing how to take control of policing powers, and we (the Republic) and the UK governments support them in their peaceful development.

@Masterninja: you said : "Denis, don't say Afghanistan is the shittiest country in the World unless you've been there." - you can't really say Afghanistan is the shittiest unless you've been to all the countries...

back somewhere near topic: IMHO Afghanistan is not in the Middle east: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Middle_East_(orthographic_projection).svg

Especially considering the middle eastern conflict, in which context you are tlaking about. Afghanistan is more like Pakistan and parts of Iran. The middle east is made up of arab states, with Iran and Egypt in the east and west of the region, and Turkey in the north. Israel and Iraq in the middle.

Afghanistan is central Asia, with Pakistan and Iran being major neighbours, along with the other central Asian republics (former soviet republics) Tajik, Uzbek and Turkmen -istans. The border with China is tiny, and with the western most provinces of China (which are agricultural, have muslim ethnic groups which oppose Chinese rule, and poor education.) Look at the histories of Regional conflict, the effects of colonial rule (India/Pakistan by Britian, and Central Asian republics by Russia, China's rule over Xinjiang province) Iran as the regional power...

There's a lot more going on than anyone in this thread has done justice to. (not to even meniton the mongol influence) - but to be clear, it has very litle to do with Israel, shia and sunni in Afghanistan live together peacefully, and they are not Arabs.

Back on topic, given that America is involved Obama is seen (in most of Europe) as doing his best to sort out the problem without leaving too early. If he can afford another 30,000 troops then that is definitely better than abandoning them to their internal squabbles. It is better than leaving them as the US did when the USSR pulled out, (which lead to the Taliban coming to power)

The American people are just as powerless (democracy? - ha, ha,ha!! - was there one policial party, out of ....2 - dahhh - , which opposed the U.S.' unprovoked criminal war of agression against Iraq?) and brain-washed (free press? Ha, ha, ha...) as the North Korean people; actually, on reflection, probably even more so (powerless)......
The main difference is: North Koreans are starving whilst Americans gorge themselves, both with deplorable results - 1 out of 3, soon to be 2 out of 3 Americans are (grossly) obese...... At least one problem North Koreans are not having to deal with....

http://paulitics.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/the-difference-between-who-pays-for-war-and-who-dies-pic/

North Korea has to be consiered a failure of a state by any comparison with the US. It is the one nation which has had decrease in average height over the past 50 years. (due to poor nutrition, even if other countries have more starving people they've been improving conditions)

The better question is why did we leave in the first place when the first bush was in charge now that was stupid.....we knew we would go back.

80% of Greeks don't know that we have sent armies to Afghanistan and 20% who know are really ashamed of it.
Why don't you just admit that the war in Afghanistan is just another way for a clever government to distract people from the country's real problems like poverty, unemployment, criminality etc
And don't tell me these are not issues for USA. A large portion of your population is starving and living on the streets (John Carpenter although a sci-fi director illustrates it perfectly-watch the initial 5 min of the movie "They Live (We Sleep)")

145 people is hardly an army...
and the attack on Afghanistan was an immediate responce to the attacks on the world trade center. With UN support, and NATO allies sending troops, against a Taliban which had little claim to legitimacy.

to quote wikipedia:
"...Taliban regime...gained diplomatic recognition from only three states: the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia... Most states in the world, including Russia, Iran, India, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan, and later the USA, opposed the Taliban and aided their enemy the Northern Alliance."

of course opposition does not equal a lack of legitimacy, but i'm not unhappy to see their brand of islam removed from power. (the treatment of women and other Human rights violations are my main objections) That said the US invasion has not resulted in imporved education and economic progress for the Afghan peoples, so it can hardle be considered a good thing.

Clever means of distraction?
No, that's football.

Will you ever drop your immature conspiracy theories, that's what I wonder.

I have read "Media Control" by Noam Chomsky and I recommend you do as well. Yes the media informs everything we say (most of us), but that does not mean that everything is some kind of giant conspiracy. Really.... please.

@obiwanobiwan
The area was not "already a mess when Israel was formed". It was doing fine under Ottoman rule until the allies carved it up. While I agree with you that the way things are now "both deserve land, and must make concessions to each other" I still feel that the First Nations have more of a right to claim North America back than the Jews had to claim Israel back.

@SunZi - Two thumbs up! Palestine deserves a homeland. They allies took it from them and gave it to the jews. Then the newly formed Israel went and started a war to take even more. I am so sick and tired of this country letting the Israelies get away with everything. And I'm even more sick and tired of hearing my Jemish inlaws talk about how great Israel is and their anti-Palestine and anti-Christian rhetoric. "The Jews are so oppressed..." BULLSHIT! There hasn't been any Jewish oppression since Hitler and they need to get over it. they own Hollywood and the world bow to their every demand. It's time for Israel to realize they aren't the chosen people anymore. and it's time for the rest of the world to tell them to shut the fuck up and kick their asses until they show their neighbors the respect they claim they don't get (which is also bullshit).

@SunZi: is it not the case the Jews went to Israel in the 20s/30s and bought a lot of land from the arabs, in what was Palestine - a league of nations mandate.

Then after the holocaust it was decided by 'the powers that be' the the jews needed a state for themselves to avoid that kind of thing happening again (thus more jews flocked to Israel)...

actually reading a bit, it was part of the British Mandate over Palestine to allow Jews to settle. I think this is an example of a failed attempt by Imperial powers and the International Community (the British Empire, the US, the league of Nations and the UN) to create a stable viable state - though there were Jews from Poland who fought in WW2 and successfully defended Israel from Arabs when it was invaded.

It is essentially a settlement supported by outsiders (ignoring the religious element) which now controls neighbouring territory and effectively runs a prison state in palestine. (with riots that get dealt with by militrary force as you might imagine in any violent prison...) So their claim is only just by the fact that it is supported by someone.

there are a lot of groups which don't have their own state to represent and protect them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrepresented_Nations_and_Peoples_Organization

there is no international body deciding to grant them a state and some land.

To answer the original question: you've finally figured out that Osama lives there(or at least he used to.......).

Way to catch up.

Don't please me Thucydides
Too bad you read Chomsky without actually understanding him.
That's the last message from me in this thread.

Hey Hellat!

You're an idiot! You're such a moron I now wish I didn't spend the last 30 seconds writing this post!

Don't bother responding--This is my last message in this thread, too!

well done you both fail at talking to each other and learning from your differences of opinion...

just because he himself is critical of US foreign policy doesnt mean i misunderstood him

i, unlike some people, do not develop a set of beliefs because one party i respect holds those beliefs. i disagree profoundly with some of the people i respect the most.

and the people i usually respect the most are pragmatists who refuse to conform to a party platform, and as a result are criticized by their own parties. heroes.

@ kestas, no it doesn't, but obama has different goals than bush (the reason we're in the general vicinity is because of oil though). i get your point. obama is doing what he thinks is right (plus withdrawing completely would be political suicide at least if it was done immediately with no plan)