I said silly in that I would find the job itself frivolous, were I to do it. Not silly in that they are not integral to society in their own ways, I even acknowledge that these jobs affect my life significantly.

And I stand by the definition of need I used. Yes the economy and culture would be drastically affected. But life would go on, just as it has after this financial crisis. That doesn't mean I would be okay with it happening, I would be just as bummed as the next guy that there is no Halloween, or no baseball, or no pianos. And maybe through a trickle down effect my dad would lose his job and I'd have to drop out of college. That's not impossible. I would be okay though. I don't NEED an education, either.

Yes, you NEED an education and subconsciously desire it over all other things. It is human nature.

If you wake up and fall asleep without having learned or experienced at least one new thing, you are dead.

An education hardly ever comes from traditional methods such as the university or an apprenticeship, and if that is all you meant then you're right, you don't need either of those things. But they are good ways to learn, if not the best.

To me there are levels of "need"

Physical needs to prevent death.
Mental or emotional needs to keep me from losing my mind, such as interpersonal relationships and sensory stimuli.
"Needs" that I have to live a reasonable life within the culture at large, basically the need to have an average standard of living, or to stay out of poverty.

And then the bullshit "needs" that no one really needs, like a big TV.

So, when I woke up at 6:00 this morning and took a leak, I should have learned something? Otherwise I'm already dead. <grin>. I know what you mean Geo, just poking a little light hearted fun.

As far as your education view goes, I agree 100%, but would add the caveat that a formal education makes it easier to get your foot in the door. Once there, though, it is you rskill, experience, and desire that allows you to move up the success ladder.

That said, not everyone views their success as being work related. Many would call themselves a success because their kids love them and want to be around them and their wives adore them. Maybe they have lots of friends and are the life of the party when they are out. Success in life is subjective and people put weight on different things. so you could not be successful while being a garbage man because you put an emphasis on your chosen career, but someone else would say that how they are remembered when they are gone is the true measure of their success and not how much they left behind or what bridge or circuit or some other widget they designed.

The last is not a need, but a greed as we call it in WoW.

That was to Thucy and the "big TV" need.

Lol. Need v. greed. True enough. But I argue that, in the the developed world anyway, most of what we acquire is based more on a "greed" roll.

I am growing tired of that word success.

My opinion is that an education should never stop. Grade school exists only to teach us how to learn. College shows us how to learn professionally. And graduate school makes us learn the methods of research.There are other ways to obtain these tools, but these are the best.

Even having these tools you are only at the beginning of your education. You may not become a research engineer or a revolutionary chef or an inspirational artist, but in all these things and everything else, you are learning.

A parent is learning, even after becoming a grandparent. Some could argue that this is the most important education you can strive for.

An education never ends. Ever. And if you can truly say "my education ended on [this day]" then you are either blind to the experiences around you, or yes, you are dead. And if you are not dead, as you, I would want to be.

And I don't know about you, but I need my greed rolls to enchant my need rolls.

I would also argue that money enhances happiness when used correctly because it can buy you the luxury of completely focusing on your education and the education of those around you, be it family or friends.

With money you can spend every moment with your family. With money you can challenge yourself with new experiences. With money you can learn anything because money buys time.

Money won't buy you happiness, but it takes care of several things on the ingredients list.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I'm very strongly of the passion over money school and expect to be pretty poor all my life.

I also love education and believe as you do Geo that education never stops.

Then why not focus you reducation on something that can also earn you a nice living and you enjoy doing? Geo is an engineer (mechanical, electrical, civil, hydro, ultrasonic, NDT, what specialty Geo?) and I'm a computer geek (software developer/engineer, application architect, IT systems engineer, held many a title in my career). We both enjoy what we do (well, I do, I'm pretty sure Geo does too) and both make decent enough money, I would imagine (not asking how much Geo...) so why not find something realted to what you love, but that has a realistic potential to make good money. So, if you are a musician, focus on a field of music where you don't have to be discovered to make a good living, like classical or jazz, not rock.

Actually, I just quit my job because I felt it wasn't supplementing my education quickly enough for my tastes. I'll be a full time student again in 2010.

I've some skill with writing, especially technical writing, so I used that skill along with my CS background to sort of bridge myself between two islands. One island contains all the engineers and the other contains the entrepreneurs and investors.

I had to write and research my way into the engineering ranks so that they'd accept me as their own and then write and people-skills my way into the money world so that they'd trust me to tell them about good research. And then as long as I wrote prim and proper grant requests and sexy exciting pieces like you'd see in Wired, everyone was happy and I got to experience some really cool things.

But the problem was that I felt I was still learning more about bread being mostly self-taught after a basic grade school apprenticeship. (I was still at the bakery because I absolutely love every aspect of it and because of that, I was making very good money.)

With the need to stretch into both worlds, I could never really belong to one, and so I started loosening my grip on the sexy exciting to more often peer over the shoulders of engineers doing real research. And that was only one step from trying to participate where I hit a big road block of:

"If you want to come in here and get your hands dirty with us, you've got to have at least a masters and most likely a Ph.D."

And so, I'm a student again.

Oh no I agree Draugnar. It's not like I'm cynical about my prospects, I just don't expect to get rich or something. I'll be fine financially, but modest. But I'll let you know how that went in like nine years' time.

@Draug,

I think that choosing a career based on the need for income and hoping that it's something you enjoy is the biggest problem with our education system and the worst way to approach a decision that is so defining of your life.

If you can find something you truly love and have the motivation to devote yourself to it, then you'll make more than living from it.

I mentioned earlier that I love working in a bakery, I get used to a shop and it becomes my first home. And since I love it and have a large amount of experience with it, I'm invariably skilled at it, which in turn created an income that I could of never expected.

But eventually the time required for the profits cut into the time devoted towards experimentation and that "art of baking," so it became a job that I still liked, but didn't love.

I found it easier to sacrifice my devotion for perfection and new discoveries with engineering mostly because engineers do not strive for anything less than perfection and their business is research, but also because I could bring ingredients home and spend all the time I wanted making bread I was proud of, but with my other work, I had to be in the field to experience it the way I wanted to.

I want to do both, but I'm unsure which one will make me happier. Since I CAN do both, one as a career and the other as a hobby, I have plenty of time to figure that out, become financially stable, and "retire" into whichever profession I want to devote the remainder of my life to.

I wasn't suggesting he settle, just that he look for that field that provides both. Everyone has one, they just have to look inside and out for it. You can love teaching, but want the income and be good at tech, so you become a teacher of technology to companies who want their people to learn something specific (just an example). Not knowing what Thucy is studying and wants to do, I can't recommend a specific field for him, but he should know which specific areas in his field of choice will pay well and that he'll be able to find his love of that field as a whole in.

I am a good example of that. I love the tech (software development, systems design, new tech evaluation and integration, etc) and I don't mind dealing with people (started working a help desk early on), so IT Director works well for me and pays too. The only thing I don't care for about the position is having to deal with direct reports as I don't like having to come down on someone. I love to praise and hate to criticize (except when I'm arguing here ;-) ). But every chosen profession will have something you hate doing. The key is to find enough of the loves and likes so that the hates are minor issues to you. After 27 years in IT, I think I know all the loves and likes of my field and have a job with the minimal amount of hates.

"I think I know all the loves and likes of my field."

Does that not disappoint?

You can make money and be successful by doing what you like!!

I agree that every profession has a lot of disadvantages. No matter how much you like it, it's possible that you ll end up hating it. I am really jealous of those of you that claim to be happy with their profession for decades. I don't think I'm going to stick to one profession for more than 5 years.

I'm thankful that my jobs provide the other two.