Regardless of whatever difference in their policies, this shows that there is a strong, vocal opposition to the Islamic Republic's form of government.

2009 could be Iran's 1968. This might be the start of a change of the popular will there that can't be stopped. At least not peacefully.

But what do I know about Iranian domestic politics? What do any of us know, really? I couldn't tell you what's going on in Wisconsin or even the next town over, really.

Im an Israeli, and in Israel the media is watching Iran closely.

Even though Mussavi is no better to Israel than the other guy, I support every man's rights and their rights are being trampled on and lied to in this so called democracy, where candidates have to go through a religous comitte.

Btw, the Iranian president is the fourth most powerfull man in Iran, the other 3 are not elected and do not have anything to with democracy. Democratic illusion

Democracy is an illusion EVERYWHERE, and certainly also in the Excited States of America (remember 2000 with the pin-hole poked ballot papers in Florida that got Dub'yah in...?).

A state is racist if it declares itself a state for only one kind of people. That state is Israel, the self-proclaimed "State for the Jewish People". Everyone else (i.e. those being non-Jewish, whether that is a racial or a religious criterion, is a confused issue even among scholars in Israel itself....) is a second-class citizen in israel, assuming they got in in the first place.

All of this is discrimination at best (on religious grounds) and probably also racism (if Jewish means of a certain racial denomination).

Plain & simple....

Conclusion: So far, I have counted only one racist state here on earth....

@Pantalone. Wow, are you confused. Not necessarily about Israel, that's a different debate. But Israel being the ONLY racist state? That's a clear signal that your views are HEAVILY colored by your own biases. There is genocide going on in many parts of the world. Whether Israel is a "racist state" or not is debatable. Whether it is the most racist state is even more debatable. But the ONLY racist state? Not even close. Whatever arguments you may have to advance your agenda are undercut by your obvious bias.

@obiwan - Liberal and Zionist? Really? How can you call yourself a Liberal if you believe that Israel has the right to unilaterally annex lands occupied by other people? That's not a liberal value. Maybe you're liberal when it comes to social policy in America, but Zionism just doesn't fit with a liberal mind in my book.

support the iranian people in their fight for freedom?

how exactly, by encouraging them to protest? that might get them killed, I don't really feel right encouraging them to do anything. They should make their own decisions about it.

by telling them they should have the right to (*insert declaration of human rights here*) supporting their right to depose their government? I don't see how my words here are gonig to change anything in Iran.

never-the-less: to all iranian reader, good luck and do the right thing(whatever that might be).

I seriously doubt the "fact" that the election was rigged. There, I said it, let the flaming begin.

The state of Israel is clearly deeply, institutionally racist. This does not of course mean all jews, or even all Israelis, are racist. I also agree that it is not the only racist regime in the world.

Why does everything have to turn into an Israel-bashing fest?

Invictus, you didn't see it coming, as soon as a poster mentioned he was from Isarel?

As for other racist states, how about "The Islamic Republics of Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and Mauritania. "

"According to the constitution of Egypt, any new legislation must at least implicitly agree with Islamic law"

Ah, well, I could go on indefinitely I think, but I'm not sure of the point.

it is because or how badly they run the prison state of palestine.

needs better managment in my opinion.

You guys prove by your words: youve never been here, you dont know what it's like here,and you base your assumptions that this isn't our land.

Let me clerify: Zionism isn't about land grabbing. Not all zionists are for complete Israel, in fact most of them aren't, and 70 percent of jews in israel support "land for peace" and the 2 state solution.

Why? after the holocaust,after 2000 years of pogroms,murder,rape and general hatred by others, cant the jews go back to the only place they call home?! to build an army and defend themselves?

Check the history books: We agreed to the UN resolution in 47 to split the country,the arabs didnt and called for the destruction of israel.
in 67 the arabs again moved their forces to the borders with the calls "death to israel".

The palestinians brought the "occupation" on themselves by waging war again and again and denying peace! that's a fact!!

Btw, england,sweden,norway: all christian states with a *****ing cross on their flags! all the arab nations with the Islam symbol of the moon and star. why cant there be a jewish state?with a DAVID STAR?

YOUR THE RACISTS, not us.

Were done being a minority nobody gives a crap about and eventually ends up in the gas chambers.
My grandfather was there, but I wont be!

The arabs didn't agree BECAUSE IT WAS THEIR LAND. The UN in 47 was a bunch of conniving theives promising something to the Jews that they had no right to give. So, the arabs have every right to want to get their land back as the UN essentially declared Palestine a non-nation and her people second class citizens. Since then Israel has INVADED time and again. INVADED, NOT DEFENDED.

Oh, and before you go there, I do NOT agree with our (I'm an American) "mission" in Iraq. The Gulf War (Operations Desert Storm and Desert Shield) defended and took back what an aggressor stole. Afghanistan was not and is not about overthrowing the government but taking out terrorists. Iraq, however, is a fucking mess because we didn't belong there in the first place.

For the same reasons, everything happening between Israel and Palestine is a fucking mess. Israel invades at the drop of a hat. Yes, Palestine needs to control it's extremists better, but Israel over reacts and even ignores UN protests (the organization that game them their fucking nation and screwed over the Palestinians to begin with) because the USofA is so fucked up they have this delusion that if they deny Israel anything, God will punish them. They forget the Jews plotted and killed their own Messiah.

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The above wall was built to divide the discussion between that containing Israeli flamewar elements (above), and that berift of Israeli flamewar elements (below). Can we agree to follow that? ;)




Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

I am quite in agreement with those who say that it is extremely hard if not impossible for those of us on the ground here in North America or Europe (or wherever) to really gauge how deep the dissatisfaction with the regime goes, and how likely it is that the election was perverted on a grand scale. Any more than say, all other 'elections' in the region :S

What is clear though, is that Ahmedinejad and the faceless council of conservative clerics plus Khamenei no longer hold the monopoly on political influence in Iran. That poses some interesting questions, particularly for the leaders of the free world.

If Ahmadinejad retains the Presidency (which he almost certainly will) will leaders of other countries ignore this incident? Or will it completely destroy his legitimacy as a mouthpiece for his nation?

Dialogue with Iran is hard enough as it is. Can anyone see a reason why these past events will not make matters worse?


I suspect that change is coming, but I have too much faith (:P) in the iron fist of the status quo and the lack of mass uprsining outside of Tehran to seriously entertain any notion of either violent or peaceful overthrow of Iranian regime.


No, the only question is whether the moderates *in* the regime will gain or lose influence as a result of this.

Any thoughts on the above? Or am I, like North Korea, totally crazy?

Im not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan, that's your ****, and america will handle it like they allways have and things will be sorted out.

Are you talking about Gaza? the same place we left 4 years ago for "peace" ? the same place that has been firing rockets at Israel for 8 years? what is the proportioante response for 8 years of non stop missiles? more than 15,000 and counting, while all of those hit Israeli towns,not bases,not soldiers,but wemon and children?

What land did the arabs own? Jerusalem that allways(allways!) had a jewish majority? or tel aviv,where they agreed to meet(the arab leaders) the city the jews built themselves? we were in a defensive war, and as everyone knows, it's a small place. IDF's plan of war was to bring the war to the other side instead of defending,realizing that defence only weakens the Israelis. modern warfare is offensive.

Your last sentence makes me realize that there's no talking to you.
You talk about freedom, yet you dont believe I should have the freedom to not believe in your false god,Jesus.
(but i do believe he was a nice guy with good ideas)

About Iran,Iran is a dictatorship, but sense Ahmedi still has it's own regime's legitmacy, after a few weeks talks with Iran will proceed.

Eventually nobody feels more threatend about Iran than they fear north korea, which has nuclear weapons and the theoretical ability to target the western world. nobody except us, the only "bad guys" in range :),

You have a right to believe what you want. And if you were a US citizen, I would defend that right to my death. My point is that, in the religion that founded this great nation (as fucked up as she is, she is still a great nation), the Jews ceased to be the chosen people for Christ said "I am the way, the truth, and the light." If you truly believe in Christianity and have Christ as your savior, the Jews who haven't accepted Christianity are going to lose out in eternity. I.e. They are no longer God's chosen people.

And my in-laws are about half Jewish. My brother in law converted and married into the faith. He now heads up the fund-raising efforts (VP or some such title) for the Jewish Federation in Akron, OH. His initials are DK and the last name is actually pronounced in the German as his familial heritage is German, not Jewish.

Having a majority does not make one the owner of anything. That's a "might makes right" approach which I find reprehensible in real life. So, yes, Palestine owned Jerusalem. The UN is to blame for the whole damn mess to begin with, and now there is no reasonably acceptable solution to be found, primarily because the people in power ON BOTH SIDES are unreasonable.

Well Ndr-Isr, you had me till that last paragraph in your second to last post. Draugnar is being really unreasonable and offensive, but that's no reason to turn around with the same level of hate.

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There's another wall between the ridiculous antisemitism and the actual thread.

I'm starting to think there's been some sort of a line crossed. In this link there's a video of Henry Kissinger's views on the issue, take from that what you will.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8106292.stm

Just in case no-one appreciated it, I was actually attempted to make a clever little play-on-concepts with my wall.

Sigh.

Oh, and 500,00 *is* alot of people, but civil unrest does not necessarily a revolution make.

You need a cause, a means, and a weakness in the regime. So far as I can see, this dispute lacks all three in any meaningful way.

Dingleberry - You're confusing religion with race, as so many do. Muslims, or islamists, or whatever one calls them, are not of one race. Surely you are aware of that!?? They range from Bosnia (white, Slavic) through the Philippines, Mali, Tajikistan, etc.etc. - Hence: Many racial and ethnic backgrounds.

My thesis re Israel was based on the fact that (as far as I am aware!!) there are no other states on earth that specifically, in their name and national foundation, so definitely reserve their state to their own race (and/or religion), as does Israel.

Whether Israel has good reason to do so (the Holocaust, the Israeli's will say), still does nothing to excuse or justify it.

Of course many other states are racist IN PRACTICE (separately from Israel being it too by name). An expat friend of mine (British) lived and worked in Japan in the shipping industry years ago. They had a child born there and when he went to the town hall to register it, he asked, out of curiosity if nothing else, whether his Japanese-born child would qualify for Japanese citizenship. The man behind the counter laughed uproareously, then pointed to his own eyes and said: Only if he has (slit) eyes like these!! Answer: No, not possible; you are not Japanese and your child even though born here is not nor ever will be Japanese. Racism? Looks like it.... Therefore reprehensible?.... Good question for a Forum debate, I should think.

All right, I'm getting a little mad now so I'll tear down my own wall. I'm not an apologist for Israel since they do do some pretty shady stuff, but these anti-Semitic lies and hate really bother me. Beware, it'll be long. Try to read it, though.

1. A country calling itself an Islamic Republic and mandating that its laws conform to sharia is the same sort of institutionalized discrimination that Israel supposedly has. I'd say it's further, but that's another argument.

Your point about Muslims not all being the same race is absurd since all Jews aren't the same race either. I don't mean crazy black supremacist Lost Tribes groups, I mean like the difference between Ashkenazim and Sephardi. The Ashkenazi are more or less just central Europeans and Sephardi are truly Semitic Mediterranean people, but they're united by their common faith in the same way that Arabs and all other sorts of Muslims are connected in theirs.

Saudi Arabia won't let any non-Muslim worship occur in its territory. It's the law there. The totality of the state is wrapped up in its conservative form of Islam much more than anything but the very fringes of Israeli society. It's similar in other Arab nations where I know for a fact that Christian worship is prohibited. I'll take a rather radical assumption that Judaism has the same draconian restrictions.

Israel has freedom of religion and a freer society than any of its neighbors.

The fact that Israel calls itself a Jewish state doesn't make it any more racist than the fact that France calls itself the French Republic when there are a lot of immigrants and Russia calls itself the Russian Federation when not everyone there is Russian.

2. Israel was not created as a consolation for the Holocaust! The modern idea of a Jewish Homeland goes back to the Balfour Declaration in 1917.

Before that, the Jews lived in what is today Israel sine there were Jews to begin with. It is their homeland and they deserve the right to self-determination there. Do they deserve the Sinai and Jordan? No, but Israel has just as much of a right to exist as any other nation on Earth.

3. I hope you realize your anecdote about Japan undermines your whole argument. Being racist in practice or racist in name is just semantics. I'd even say it's irrelevant.

to delve back into the Iran discussion - here is a take from an Iranian American who works in the US-Iran policy field and is following the situation quite closely now (that would be from me):

http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/index.php?newsendtothread=436746&viewthread=436746#postbox


@ Friendly Sword - you raise some great questions that deserve attention - but I'll have to come back to them in the other thread at a future hour... hope you can re-post there for later response.

====ANCHOR POST====

Everyone tie your safety lines to this post, because we're about to hit some turbulence, except by turbulence I mean a tempest of frothing fury and violent vitriol. This post is not an attempt to make light of the issue, but serves a serious warning that if you read this thread, hang tight to your sensibilities, because you will be offended. It would be nice if people could at least be civil. I won't be expecting it, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

@Ndr-Isr: "What land did the arabs own?"

The entire territory formerly known as 'Palestine'.

@Invictus: I don't think Draugnar is saying anything offensive or anti-semitic.

I have one simple (but long) statement. Since each religion appears to believe salvation comes through following the tenets of that religion and all non-believers will be damned for eternity, yet none of those followers of [any] particular religion actually KNOWS FOR A FACT that it's 100% true (by its nature, religion is based heavily on faith), I look forward to seeing every last member of this planet that was or ever will be in some variety of hell so we can all really have productive dialogue on this topic. Perhaps at that time (and with the realization that comes from it) we, as a species, can get our heads out of our asses and begin to treat each other as human beings regardless of race, religion, etc. That is the one major point that I disagree w/ my chosen/personal religion - I do not wantonly damn the rest of mankind because they don't believe as I do. I've seen nothing from my god/supreme being/force, nor anyone else's god/supreme being/force that clearly demonstrates a desire/lust for mass death, destruction, damnation, persecution, violation, and/or degredation of other human beings - only my fellow man has called for such in the name of their gods.

There is no god.

As long as you're not advocating killing/persecuting anyone that believes there is one; I'm respectfully indifferent of that opinion.

No, I'm not Richard Dawkins, I don't think religious people should be exterminated. Live and let live.

Universalism: A religion whose basic tenet was that God is good, and each of us is a part of God, and that because we are all part of God means that there can be no hell, for God would not condemn us.

It's too bad that this philospohy can't be used to gain political power. Because that's why Religion is used by the powerful - to gain more power. All religion that claims to have the 'Truth' is a cynical means of maintaining the status quo. There are some religions that acknowledge multiple truths, and that there is more than one path to God. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are NOT among those religions. And therein lies the root of much of the evil in our world.

The idea that both "Jesus was a Rabbi, but nothing more" "Jesus was a prophet, but nothing more" and "Jesus is God, and nothing less" can somehow all be true is frankly ridiculous. Of course the struggle for truth causes pain, but truth cannot do otherwise without becoming untruth. The most placated societies have always been the ones most inundated with lies.