Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 1334 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 16 UTC
(+1)
Debate!
Trump lasted a record 15 minutes before foaming at the mouth. A new personal best
575 replies
Open
ND (879 D)
12 Sep 16 UTC
(+10)
MAFIA XXIII: TROUBLE IN THE COMMONWEALTH
See inside for details.
4053 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
04 Oct 16 UTC
Last Call for 2016 World Cup Signups
16/21 teams are signed up right now, with a bunch of players currently looking to form teams. Join them before it is too late!
21 replies
Open
brainbomb (295 D)
03 Oct 16 UTC
(+1)
Congress Approval Rating up to 11%
Outraged Republicans insist we can make that number lower.
16 replies
Open
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
02 Oct 16 UTC
Feature discussion: newbie diplomacy
So, one feature that would be amazing for new players is a "test the waters" mode for diplomacy.

Something that new players could try to see if they like Diplomacy, without the commitment to a four month game checking the site every day, or setting aside five hours for a live game. Maybe it's a short game up until 1902? I have no idea. Ideas?
18 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
04 Oct 16 UTC
One Pepe to rule them all (and in the dank memes jibe them)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okoAQCoMYx8

REALLY? CLINTON??? NOOOOO
3 replies
Open
Red-Lion (382 D)
04 Oct 16 UTC
Classic Gunboat 23
Any interest? I'm going to start one up. Players should have about 30 minutes to join.
2 replies
Open
BusDespres (182 D)
04 Oct 16 UTC
Live Gunboat RR now
Make it 45% so I can play. I'm at 47%
17 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
25 Sep 16 UTC
(+4)
New players
If any new players (less than six months) want to play with a true webDip Legend please PM me for the password.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=183303
41 replies
Open
WhiteSammy (100 D)
03 Oct 16 UTC
BACK IN THE GAME, Let's make it a good one!
gameID=183577

50 buy-in, anon, rulebook, 80% RR, Modern II
0 replies
Open
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
02 Oct 16 UTC
(+3)
webDiplomacy is doing ok
See inside for usage statistics and oil paintings.
43 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
28 Sep 16 UTC
(+2)
It's been a while...
Who's up for a game of Anakara Crescent? I'll start with the Corbynista Opening.

Liverpool
70 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
26 Apr 16 UTC
(+3)
School of War Game Thread - Spring 2016
The official game thread of gameID=178165.
Page 9 of 9
FirstPreviousNextLast
 
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
12 Jul 16 UTC
I would cede both Warsaw and Moscow for Sevastopol if that's what it takes. Austria already gave up his solo bid so assuming those two are still buddies and neither is gonna break lose as you seem to say he was, then who cares? Sevastopol gets Armenia before Turkey gets builds, so he's not trading one or two for one, he's trading one or two for one plus three and the benefit of not dealing with Turkey anymore.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
13 Jul 16 UTC
School of War Spring 1908

England - Ah, the trials and tribulations of being a favorite to solo. Nobody likes you and it's not your fault. You're kind of like the 10 year old fat kid that goes around stealing other kids' candy bars, thinking he's the shit because he can get whatever he wants, and then it just so happens that every other boy in class hits his growth spurt before he does and all of a sudden he's not so powerful anymore.

Get the analogy? Good, I don't either.

By planting your second army in Belgium, you accomplished what you set out to do this phase, which is get into an aggressive stance against Germany. You also moved a third army into position to move into France, which is a big deal - you need to have both a western and northern front against Germany in order to cripple him. What you didn't have as much control of was Austria's move to Marseilles with German support, which doesn't just cost a center but also a Mediterranean fleet, meaning that instead of outnumbering Austria 3-to-2 in fleets, he is now even with you and could outnumber you if he manages to put his Ionian fleet into Tunis. Moreover, Turkey slid into Tunis, which means that, unless Austria helps you back in, you are going to drop that center as well. Personally, I think you made the right choice to get the army out of Tunis and prepare yourself to put a fleet there or at worst bounce it, and though I wouldn't have expected a convoy to go through, I'm glad you understand how ineffective an army really is when it's in Tunis.

Since you're going to drop at least one - maybe two - centers this year, you now have to look ahead. You may not have any disbands because Marseilles can't retreat anyway, so if you don't lose anymore centers, you end up even. Still, you may have come to a crossroads where it isn't feasible to solo quite yet and it may be worth coming to a sort of settlement with A/G that gives you the necessary positioning to try again later if an opportunity arises. On the other hand, it may be worth working with Turkey - even though he is in Tunis - to retake control of the Mediterranean and try to keep your solo hopes alive. The latter takes more effort, skill, and patience than the former, but it obviously reaps more reward.

Germany - While it's never fun to fight off a former ally, you gained a lot more than you lost here. Firstly, you managed to kick England out of Marseilles, which may put a major dent in his solo effort if it means that you and Austria retake control of France. Moreover, you made a friendship with both Russia and Austria that means you only have to worry about defending your interests right now as opposed to a southern incursion, plus you have potential growth opportunities via Russia later on if you don't give him too much ground now.

The most important move you made, though, was putting the Baltic into Denmark. This puts a pair of fleets on the North Sea, meaning that not only can England not afford to convoy another unit into France if he were to build via the English Channel, but he can't send that fleet south *or* send that fleet towards Skagerrak. By finally making this move, you shored up your defenses and I imagine I'm not the only spectator happy that you managed to do this.

If I'm looking at the board the right way, you could still sneak out of this phase without having to disband. That would be a major statement to England - you aren't disbanding and both Austria and Russia are building. All the while, he's losing ground. When he sees that, he might not have the motivation to work toward a solo anymore and you might end up getting some valuable territory back.

Austria - At this point, you can turn the game one of two directions - a) toward a draw, or b) toward another solo attempt. It's there for you, you just have to see it before the window closes. Russia will be building again shortly unless you were to make a sneaky move toward Warsaw or Sevastopol - neither of which you can support, but you probably don't need to - and England may lose enough ground against you and Germany that he backs off in the north, meaning Germany will once again be able to defend against an attack against you. In other words, the window for this move is probably this phase and this phase only, so if you're going to take your shot, I would do it now.

You have done a good job in the Mediterranean, not only because you took Marseilles but because you reestablished yourself as the dominant power down there. With at least one build coming, you'll be able to build yet another fleet, and with Turkey's units split, you shouldn't have a problem finishing him off with or without Russian help. Moreover, if your army in Piedmont can somehow end up in Marseilles, you can even make a push westward for Iberia, which, if you manage to claim it, would basically make a solo inevitable.

Turkey - The last thing a military needs to do is displace itself while under pressure. In this instance, your unit in Tunis is largely dead *unless* you want to abandon Tunis, which, in this instance, might not be the worst idea.

I presume, though I could easily be wrong, that the move to Tunis was part of an agreement with England, something where you gain your center, getting you a build, and he promises to defend you. If that's the case, that's fine, but what a player in this position needs to consider is that gaining that build isn't worth very much if it costs a unit to get it. As of now, even if it netted a build, which it probably won't, Tunis is out of position and not able to help your defense. That renders the build coming from Tunis less valuable.

As things stand, I assume that you will lose Constantinople to Austria this phase, which is basically the beginning of the end for you. That's pretty unfortunate because it looked for awhile as if you might be able to weasel your way out of the corner with some Austrian mistakes, but Russia's continued aggression would undoubtedly seal the envelope. It's not over until it's over, though.

Russia - Austria moved out of Ukraine, and at this point, it's worth trusting him. You have to, really. Getting a build in St. Petersburg with German help means that you can become somewhat self sufficient again and may even be able to grow a little bit through Turkey in the coming phases. If Austria stabs you here, there's not a whole lot you could do about it other than take temporary preventative measures, but those would prevent you from growing again and you can't afford to miss that opportunity.

You need to stay wary, though. All three of England, Germany, and Austria have slim solo possibilities yet, though Austria has the best setup to do so at the moment. Moreover, they could easily work to remove you from a draw and it wouldn't take them very long if they elected to do that. Press at this stage is critical - the best thing you have going for you to prevent getting cut from a draw is friendship. Even Diplomacy players have emotions. Good job fighting back, keep it up.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
15 Jul 16 UTC
School of War Autumn 1908

England - Losing Holland is a fair bit devastating and it was completely preventable by simply cutting the Heligoland Bight and Ruhr simultaneously, possibly supporting the unit in Holland to Belgium with the English Channel (to bounce). That said, the loss was fairly inevitable - the army there was more of a detriment to you than anything because of Germany's fleet arrangement against you and in total, having one of your two disbands chosen for you isn't the worst thing in the world. Maybe a creative move like convoying Holland over to Brest or Picardy in order to try to take Paris would have made some sense if you were prepared to lose the center, but even then, you would be dead in the water against Germany.

As things are, your focus should be shifting to preventing anyone else from trying to solo. Your position in the draw was never compromised, so this is your fall-back plan anyway. Austria poses a potential threat, though it looks to me as if he doesn't necessarily realize it (Germany's move to Silesia suggests that Germany, in fact, does recognize the slim but possible solo threat, so that may be some common ground for you to move forward on). All in all, it's unfortunate that your bid seems to be thwarted - for now - but another opportunity may arise before the end of the game, especially if you reassert yourself as a controlling power in the Mediterranean.

Germany - Managing to disband Holland is a huge win for you this year, allowing you to avoid disbanding despite dropping Marseilles and giving you a pretty clear path to kicking England out of Belgium as well. You also have an opportunity to make a move toward Norway and the North Sea if you would like, which may open up some interesting opportunities for you in the very, very long run. Your three fleets could easily grow into four or five and overtake England all across the board while the other build opportunities from his territory, if you can take it, would give you enough armies to drive south without worrying too much about defending your west edge.

You could also take this opportunity to make peace with England and focus instead on either thinning the field of play or lining a stalemate against Austria, who hasn't taken advantage of his full growth potential and may very well intend not to. Either way, watch the builds - Austria has one, Russia has one. England's disband will obviously matter to you too.

Austria - Coming out of the year with one build is a little bit of consolation for the fact that Russia and Turkey both come out with a build as well, but it's not as much as you could have had. I'm disappointed by the apparent lack of coordination with Russia, who, if you planned on his support into Constantinople, didn't want to help you any more than he absolutely had to. By failing to take either Sevastopol or Warsaw, both of which were predictably unblocked, you wasted two units, one in Rumania with an unnecessary support and the other in Galicia that simply held.

You also failed to even try your hand at taking Tunis, which will only get harder to take as England gets his spare fleets to the south. In my mind, there was little reason to allow Turkey to keep Tunis - he's your big adversary, not England - and likewise no reason to give England an extra phase to reposition himself against you. You should be in the GoL right now, even if that meant that you didn't gain Marseilles, because the ultimate pursuit of Tunis will pay greater dividends for you than both helping Turkey survive and try to kill him at the same time, which, like I said, is a strategy that makes little sense to me.

As for your build, you have the option to build another army or a fleet, but if you're going to go with the former, I must encourage you not to use it "defensively," which is this buzzword that people on webDip seem to use to mean "uselessly." The best defense is an offense - a wall, even - that, rather than simply sitting around and getting in everyone else's way is able to move forward. If you have any vision of soloing, you're going to need to get into both Russia and Germany and sitting still won't get you there.

Turkey - You lucked out kid. Either bad communication between Russia and Austria or just a good, subtle, and strategic "stab" by Russia kept you alive and gives you a build, which you can choose to drop in either Ankara or Smyrna. Moreover, it looks like Austria would rather protect you than let England anywhere near his interests in the Med, a sign that he would take a four- or five-way draw over any arrangement that allows England to get closer to him. Whatever works, though.

You should be able to judge here whether or not Russia is a real threat - i.e. whether or not he's going to build in Smyrna and take a nosedive for your centers - or whether he can be convinced to take on the big red machine to the west with some support. This is where press is crucial. If you aren't actively communicating with him, you need to be open with him about where you want to go and what you two want to do and hopefully you can get creative to find some common ground. Ultimately, I think you might find yourself a decent ally again if you are both willing to make some concessions with one another.

Russia - Your resilience in both tactics and press has kept you alive and this year, I have little doubt that cunning diplomacy was more at play with Austria's decision to back off of you and now stay off of you than "luck," which is a word I throw around more than I should from someone in my hindsight-driven, armchair expert position. You have the ability to grow yourself into a reasonably formidable force, particularly because there is no way in hell England is going to be able to maneuver enough to retake St. Petersburg from you without help from Germany. You have growth options in Turkey, Austria, and even Scandinavia if you can negotiate it with Germany. As little upside as your position has had the last few years, there's real potential now for growth instead of mere survival. Your build has the power to dictate your strategy going forward, so be wise with it and recognize that Austria's and Turkey's builds and spring moves can completely alter the landscape of your game if you can manage to keep them away from you.

Grades and rankings:

1.) Austria - C+ - Hard to complain about getting into Iberia, which is uncommon for Austria, but that can't overshadow long-term tactical mistakes that he made this phase. Hopefully as his relationships develop with the remaining powers (keep in mind that he just subbed in), he'll be able to formulate a more clear path forward.

2.) Germany - A - Forced England into two disbands singlehandedly be retaking Holland, cutting his support of St. Petersburg, and pushing Austria into Marseilles in the spring. Cunning play in both the spring and the fall pushes him ahead of England here in the overall ladder. He has a great defensive setup that can quickly adjust to threats from any direction and is pretty much certain to be a major power in any eventual draw conceivable.

3.) England - B - He was beaten in both the spring and the fall by Germany, whose press and tactical creativity are worth noting. It is also important to recognize that Germany's fleets, like they did before this past year, really represent a total hindrance to most of England's growth opportunities in the Mediterranean. This year, the fact that England couldn't afford to get any fleets down south to move out that army before it was threatened cost him Tunis.

4.) Russia - A - He's not last!! Retaking St. Petersburg with indirect assistance from Germany and stiffing Austria out of Constantinople, which would have basically shut him out of any opportunities to grow in Turkey for himself, get him an A. The fleet in the Black Sea could help him grow through either Austrian or Turkish territory in the coming year and the future looks as bright for him as it has in four years.

5.) Turkey - B - Slipping into Tunis in the spring had the potential to cost him the game but he managed to get through the year with a build, in no small part because he took a worthwhile chance and blocked Ankara. He has a formidable task in front of him in defending against both Austria and Russia, though hopefully he can find a friend in one of those two. He needs to grow, probably through the Balkans, in order to keep his hopes alive; otherwise, someone is going to find a way to beat him eventually.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
20 Jul 16 UTC
Bump.
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
20 Jul 16 UTC
Austria: Build F Tri
It's a solid build, but note that the Adriatic is already rather congested. He is going to have to find a way to make his fleets useful. I do disagree with the C+ that bosox gave: yeah, Austria got outguessed and probably duped by Russia, but it isn't disastrous.

Germany:
No builds. On the plus side England had to disband. On the down side, further progress apart from Belgium is going to be difficult. Unless the plan is to support Russia to Norway?

England:
Not the best position, A Fin was probably the only expendable unit. It however admits that England is no longer able to dictate events in Scandinavia and must work with Russia in order to get anything done. The biggest problem is that most of England's units are unfocused and ineffective at applying any sort of pressure. Sure, he might not lose, but he's also not getting anywhere.

Russia: There's actually a problem here for Russia. Austria might get fed up the Russian antics such as failing to support Bulgaria to Constantinople when that was clearly requested.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
21 Jul 16 UTC
SoW Builds 1908

England - Disbanding Finland was a difficult choice but one of two that I considered feasible (the other being Belgium). Finland was probably the better of those two. Your biggest challenge now is to contain Germany, hopefully keeping him out of Norway, which will be problematic if Russia does not cooperate.

Germany - no builds.

Austria - A fifth fleet can do a number of things for you from working to the west to finally eating up Turkey, hopefully before Russia gets all the goods. It is definitely a long term asset and it means that, so long as you hold your ground, the Mediterranean is yours to play with. It will be hard to justify building more fleets given that that has been accomplished.

Turkey - The fleet in Ankara is the wrong choice. If building in Ankara was a priority, then an army there would be more useful as, if displaced, it can retreat. A fleet, on the other hand, cannot. Because you don't have any way to support yourself into the Black Sea, your fleet is simply going to sit still. A better decision would have been to build a fleet in Smyrna and work on establishing a better relationship with Russia, which is always possible even if it's difficult. As things stand, that fleet only encourages Russia to continue his aggression toward you and it makes it easier for him to maneuver around you.

Russia - An army in Sevastopol is definitely aggressive toward Turkey, which makes sense for you as it is the only way for you to grow given Austria's armies on your western border. Hopefully he continues to play nice with you, allowing you to grow into a totally self-sufficient and independent power.
Pomagos (268 D)
24 Jul 16 UTC
bump
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
24 Jul 16 UTC
Gonna give Austria an F for what the Fuck are you doing.

You might as well be in civil disorder. You have achieved shit all.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
27 Jul 16 UTC
Since I missed a year while out of town, I'll post something more general that hopefully you all might find useful.

A few of you have run into the same issue - having nowhere to go. This is fairly common in Diplomacy, particularly when a bunch of powers are still alive late in the game. Turkey, for example, only has two options - north or west - and each option is basically untouchable for him right now. In his case, he is simply playing defense until an opening persists, and right now, there's pretty much nothing for him.

Austria, on the other hand, has a few options, but as he continues to sit still, those options seem to dwindle. In this case, his moves did very little to benefit him. He did not make any headway against Russia, which he could have if he and Germany could have coordinated in an attack on Warsaw. He managed to cut an English support to Marseilles but he, again, failed to work with Germany in order to push England away. The two have a common enemy, so with persistent and cooperative diplomacy, it seems to me that both Germany and Austria would be able to benefit from offering each other some supports.

The same is the case with Austria's fleets. He built a fifth fleet in Trieste and it still sits in Albania, stuck there for at least the time being. This means that of his five fleets, only three of them - GoL, Tyrrhenian, and the Ionian - are in position to attack. His fleets in the Adriatic and Albania are basically serving as extras that, quite obviously, serve as a defensive buffer for the Ionian against Turkey. My question, though, is pretty simple - why not erase Turkey's fleet in Tunis? If England is such a pest, getting Tunis would provide Austria a huge leg up and those two defensive fleets could follow into the Ionian in order to continue attacking Turkey.

Likewise, a fleet could end up in Greece. Armies and fleets can be swapped fairly easily, but it requires three units - the two moving units and a fleet to convoy the army. In this case, if Austria ordered Greece to convoy to Albania (or wherever he likes) and moved Albania to Greece, he would not bounce. With this move, he would be able to put a fleet in Greece and finally get to work on Turkey.

His armies are also backed up. Greece and Serbia are stuck between supporting Bulgaria and Rumania, neither of which will be able to hold up to a coordinated attack on the part of Russia and Turkey, who, fortunately for Austria, entered no orders this past phase. When Turkey enters orders, though, Austria cannot defend both Rumania and Bulgaria; he'll have to pick one. As such, my suggestion is that Austria work on rearranging now to prepare for almost inevitably losing one of those two territories rather than continue to sit still and hope for another opening to arise.

Germany is not stuck in one place, especially since England disbanded his fleet in the English Channel after losing Belgium. He can do a number of things with his units attempting to encroach into France, particularly with that new army build, and could also either support Russia or get support from Russia into Norway, something that he failed to arrange this past phase. His three fleets now outnumber England's two and, if Germany wants to attack him, England won't be able to hold up. That window won't last forever, though.

On the southern side, Austria's help could be extremely useful. Obviously, England can't just retake Paris without risking a German retreat into Brest and a German march into France, so Germany already has the upper hand here. Austria, though, has an army in Marseilles that could cut Gascony while Germany attacks Burgundy, meaning that not only is Paris safe but a move to Burgundy is guaranteed this fall once Kiel moves to Ruhr. At the same time, Austria could move his fleets toward the Western Mediterranean as England probably has to retreat in order to defend his homeland from Germany.

This is the point where this game is getting extremely interesting. Rather than short-sighted, wild solo runs that, while fun to watch, are pretty useless unless they work (and they hardly ever do), this game is experiencing a serious power shift right now. England's stock, for example, is seriously dwindling - he's in danger of being clobbered on all fronts by Germany and is in terrible position to defend against it. Russia's stock is rising quickly as he now has opportunities in Austria with Turkish help and in Scandinavia with German help and I think that he has proven with cunning diplomacy throughout this game that he can find a way to get those necessary supports. Austria has opportunities to grow as England, Turkey's only real buffer between the big red and all of his fleets in the Mediterranean, has to retreat quickly and will probably have some disbands coming up, meaning Austria can ideally take over Iberia and Tunis and work his fleets both west and east. Ultimately, what this equals is Germany and Austria overtaking England as the favorite and Russia is closing in on England for a spot in that top-tier of powers. Russia hasn't been able to say that all game. Turkey's position is really the only one that isn't changing right now; he's still a serious underdog.

I look forward to your fall moves. If any of the players would like some private commentary and Q&A, feel free to PM me if you have lost touch with your TA. Likewise, if anyone in the peanut gallery wants to offer some thoughts, the game is evolving quickly so feel free to jump in.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
28 Jul 16 UTC
SoW Spring 1910 Commentary

England - From my perspective, it looks to me that Germany is doing two things: a) he is asserting himself as the dominant land force in the north, and b) he is remaining fairly neutral with both you and Russia. It seems to me like a fair balance of power, one where you are penalized for your solo attempt and one where he can feel comfortable that he won't do it again. The question, though, is whether or not you are comfortable, and in your shoes, as long as the North Sea is exposed, I don't think you should be.

Obviously, Germany taking the North Sea isn't the end of the world unless you can't stop him from attacking your homeland. Right now, you can't. If he takes the North Sea, you are going to have many retreat options but none of them are going to give you the kind of protection you need. Moreover, now that he's moved his fleet from Holland to Belgium, he also threatens the English Channel, which, if he claims, means that he can surround you and convoy himself into your territory from multiple angles. Basically, this fleet arrangement is pretty gloomy for you.

Presumably because of your arrangement with Germany, you won't be able to build this year once Germany takes Brest unless you managed to take another center. In my mind, the only realistic option is Tunis, which, while useful, is only temporary because choosing to take it means surrendering the Western Mediterranean to Austria, meaning he can then take it from you next year. You could also back entirely out of the Mediterranean, which frees up two fleets to potentially move north as opposed to one but they won't be able to get into defensive position for a long time - over a year - whereas a build would be an immediate buffer, albeit a smaller one. This is not an easy choice and both options are a little bit painful, but I don't see how you can survive with this fleet arrangement.

Germany - Even though Austria outnumbers you in SCs, you are far, far more powerful than he is right now in three ways. Firstly, you are clearly much more influential - you've been able to negotiate a truce of sorts with England that now nets you two centers and leaves him fairly defenseless to you. Austria, on the other hand, is now being attacked by three players *plus* he just moved two armies toward you. Secondly, Austria is about to disband probably at least two units whereas you are about to build for the second year in a row. Thirdly, and most importantly to me, you have the most room to grow. Austria is pretty much cornered from the west - even if England completely retreats, your presence in French territory means that all he could claim is Iberia, but I don't think England is going to make it that easy for him. You, on the other hand, can grow via England, Scandinavia, France, and Russia. This puts you at the head of the table right now.

What that means is that not only your position but really much of the board's moves are in your hands. You don't have to use your influence to bully other powers (though you could, this usually doesn't work out well), nor do you necessarily have to use it to manipulate them at all, but the option is there, particularly when it comes to the actions of Russia and England. They are both very much vulnerable to you.

I don't think I can offer you a ton of advice for the fall phase as a professor because much of what you're going to do here depends on your diplomacy and negotiation. Hopefully you can keep that up; it's clearly been working so far.

Austria - You finally managed to put yourself in position to make a strong move on Turkey, which is great. You made a number of mistakes otherwise, though. You left Galicia for Bohemia, which was a bad move - if Germany wanted to attack you, he was able to support himself against you and you could not stop him. Moreover, Russia had already positioned himself to attack you and he did exactly that. Rather than aggressively moving that unit to Ukraine, which would force Russia to at least consider retreating, or defensively using that unit to help cover your homeland, you simply let Russia waltz right into both Rumania and Galicia simultaneously, *plus* you might have made an enemy out of Germany in the process. You could have made a friend out of Germany and potentially even taken Warsaw. Each of these were better options than what you chose.

Speaking of your move toward Germany, what's the goal? Your army in Trieste is still a phase away from attacking Munich, which means that you won't be able to go there with support until after builds - and Germany has one coming. Moreover, your two armies hardly have anywhere to go. Silesia is covered, Munich was covered, and Germany is pretty much untouchable from your side. There was no reason to go that direction here. You would have been better off defending and putting an army in position to convoy itself into Syria so that you can really attack Turkey.

As for your fleets, you've done well to stall England, but you need to take Tunis. Turkey's unit in Tunis is holding both of you up and England has twice now shown reluctance to support it. He would rather be aggressive and reclaim his stalemate line against you. You, on the other hand, are completely stuck now that you've lost Marseilles. England's fleets are untouchable. Turkey isn't going to support either of you - believe me, he's perfectly comfortable where he is. You're going to have to take it yourself and hope that England is once again not wise enough to cover it from you.

Turkey - You made the right moves this phase by supporting Russia into Rumania. You have to cut Austria down to size because he's the threat right now. Unfortunately, he finally found a way around you, but he likely won't be able to do much harm this year if you defend yourself properly while you and Russia can work together to take another center from him and force him to disband three units this year. At that point, you will probably have shrunk him down to size enough that you can at least defend yourself. We'll see.

Russia - You made four excellent moves with your units and you are in position to gain at least one but up to three centers this year if everything goes right for you. Unsurprisingly, Germany didn't support you into Norway - there was no reason for him to in the spring - but fortunately for you, Austria made a mistake and let you take both Galicia and Rumania. This means that if you and Turkey outguess Austria with regards to Bulgaria, Budapest, and Vienna, you could end up in St. Petersburg plus a second Austrian center. You would have three builds and you would vault from #4 in the power rankings to as high as #2 as both England and Austria are suffering right now. Good phase, looking forward to seeing what you can do in the fall.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
31 Jul 16 UTC
Bump. Will post more following the retreats.
paulyork64 (351 D)
01 Aug 16 UTC
Rebump
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
01 Aug 16 UTC
(+1)
SoW Autumn 1910 Commentary

Shorter than usual; trying to say a little less now that I'm basically TAing for a couple of players. If this is better and more readable, please let me know.

England - This is the worst case scenario for you. Not only did your retreat back to face Germany not happen but you actually entrenched yourself deeper in an endless battle in the Mediterranean. Germany, seeing the opportunity, took Brest, as I presumer you both agreed upon, while also snagging the North Sea and now having an uncontested shot at the English Channel in the spring or a straight convoy onto your island. You are going to be up for quite a challenge to block all three of your home centers this coming phase regardless of which of those options he chooses.

You have a disband, which I think is obvious. Unfortunately, it means that you're going to have to give Austria some breathing room, but hopefully, that also opens the door to some fresh negotiations. You need him to be friendly with you because you have little choice but to fully commit to Germany right now.

Germany - This is (almost) the best case scenario for you. England didn't retreat, which means he trusted you and you pulled the rug out from under him at the perfect moment. Moreover, you're in the North Sea and you have a unit that you can freely convoy to Yorkshire in the spring. You can also go with a gutsy play and convoy straight to the channel, which is taking a chance but secures you a convoy to London if it works. Moreover, you forced England to disband rather than stay even, meaning he's going to lose ground in the Mediterranean and probably end up dropping a center or even two in Iberia next year. You're in the driver's seat.

With the eradication of one problem, though, comes the rise of another. With two builds and having defended Warsaw without moving out of Sevastopol, Russia is in a position where he has no place to go if he doesn't grow. Austria retreated, and now he's well defended. Turkey is an option but Austria has a leg up on him at the moment. The only real option left is your homeland, so you need to be wary of him. A defensive-minded build would help you here.

Austria - Unfortunately for you, you and Germany couldn't come together on your support. While that would typically leave you out to dry in Iberia, England is going to have to retreat pretty hard right here. Even if you end up disbanding one or even two of your western units, you will still be in position to pick up a little bit of territory and hopefully replace those units. Likewise, you have some near-certain gains ahead in Turkey - Smyrna is guaranteed in the spring and Constantinople is guaranteed the following year - so you are in better shape than two disbands would make you think.

Turkey - You can never retain power if you NMR. It's a pretty devastating time for you too, because you could have taken Russia's support to Constantinople and cut Greece. It would have been a temporary fix to your bigger Austrian problem, but it would have kept the lights on.

Russia - Two builds are huge for you, but the biggest build is the one in Norway. You had been waiting for Germany to take the endless opportunity he had to stab England and he finally did, leaving England scrambling and leaving you an opportunity to grow that really wasn't there before. Now, with an army in Moscow and a build of some sort in St. Petersburg, you'll have chances to grow in Scandinavia, Germany, or maybe even the English island if you and Germany end up hitting it off. Your only real concern at this stage is that Austria won't stay on his side of the line - his retreat to his home centers combined with your retreat to Warsaw put him in position to sneak into Rumania before you can do much about it.
Pomagos (268 D)
07 Aug 16 UTC
Bump
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
09 Aug 16 UTC
SoW Spring 1911 Commentary

Short analysis here. Sorry for slacking.

England - Your disband of GoL appears to have sent a decent enough message to Austria as Piedmont held rather than supporting Germany to Marseilles. You also maintain some sort of power in the Mediterranean, though that seems likely to evaporate from my perspective. Your are clearly focusing heavily on retreating to defend against Germany, but even so, you are likely going to drop Liverpool this year and maybe another center as well. That's a result of being too slow to retreat, but there's not much you can do about that now. You're making the right move to turn it around because, for the first time in a long time, your survival in this game is genuinely threatened.

Germany - The barrage against England continues. Liverpool is unblocked and you have opportunities to pick up centers in other places as well. At the very worst, you'll be able to compensate for the loss of Sweden. You're in the best position of anyone on the map here and that's not about to change.

Austria - Picking up two (or more) builds here is absolutely huge and will give you an opportunity to compete for a win here. Your move to Rumania was smart and logically follows with a move to Galicia to free up a build center. Likewise, you managed to steal Smyrna in the spring and probably won't lose it. Things look pretty good for you. Continuing to work with Germany could lead to a possible 17/17 draw, but you could also begin to scheme against him and hopefully find an opening that puts you on top.

Turkey - The NMRs are really killing you. Going down to three units is going to hurt this phase, but as long as you're getting protection in Tunis, you're alive. Unfortunately, that's not going to last for very long, nor is your survival if you don't catch a big break.

Russia - Losing Rumania hurts but can easily be compensated if you manage to take Sweden, though you risk Norway if you do so. You should be able to hold off Germany's advance, though, as long as England puts up a decent fight, and he is prepared to do that. You can either try to shore things up with Germany and try to set yourself up to defend against whoever becomes the primary solo threat at the end or you can work against him, but if Austria and he are both attacking you relentlessly, you might be in some trouble.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
12 Aug 16 UTC
SoW Autumn/Builds 1911 Commentary

England - As of this moment, you're holding the fort and it looks like you have a friend in Austria - maybe - to assist you in maintaining the Iberian stalemate line. You have also done a decent job of separating Germany. While he is invading and surrounding your homeland, his army in Liverpool can only effectively make one move right now, which is supporting the North Sea to Edinburgh. That move for him is useful but leaves him vulnerable to you. He has a lot of undefended territory between Denmark, Holland, and Belgium that you could take from the North Sea.

Your friendship with Austria may be short-lived. Notice that he built yet another fleet, giving him five total. In my mind, he only needs three unless he's going to try to go for the MAO and take Iberia himself, which isn't a bad idea. He may end up putting one in the Black Sea, but either way, that fleet build spells long-term trouble for the two of you.

Right now, your best hope is to turn Russia around toward Germany and that just took a big hit with his disband. He had an opportunity to take Sweden uncontested and he didn't, and now there's no way to convince him to change his mind. Instead, he appears fairly dead-set on attacking Austria. All the while, Germany is more comfortable and more capable of taking you out swiftly. You need to convince Russia this coming phase that this weakens him as well or else your homeland will soon be lost.

Germany - It looks to me that you have a friend in Russia, which is seriously good news. He could have taken Sweden last year, which would have ultimately left you without a build even though, at least from my perspective, it looks that you were hoping for three. By taking Liverpool and negotiating peace around Sweden, you're able to build another defensive army in Munich that will help to stunt any moves Austria considers making toward you from now and for the near future, though it appears that Austria has other things on his mind given the Russian attack and a fleet build. Maybe you'll find a way to use those two things to your advantage.

You have successfully dismantled England, and since he disbanded the MAO, your units around his homeland outnumber his, meaning that, barring something unforeseen, you're going to end up occupying his homeland completely within the next year or two. You have a few holes that you need to fill defensively, but as far as taking England down goes, you've done it, in no small part to him letting his guard down big time a few years back.

The question for you becomes a matter of your approach with regard to the MAO. In order to solo, you're more than likely going to have to cross it. Austria's fifth fleet build suggests that he not only knows that but wants to get there himself, potentially in preparation for his own solo run. Something to be wary of. Your build, at least in my opinion, is correct in this scenario because you need to defend yourself more than you need to be aggressive right now, but eventually, you're either going to have to cross the MAO or break into territory south of your homeland.

Austria - The same questions that Germany faces are relevant to you as well because you two are fairly even as far as solo chances go. You have put yourself in position to take two more centers from Turkey's homeland, though his current unit position and Russia's aggressiveness may make that a little harder than was expected, and you also have a shot at Tunis, especially with that new fleet. Likewise, you could have an opportunity to pick up some centers in Iberia, though not without contest from Germany, and you're prepared to defend yourself against Russia unless he and Turkey began to coordinate again.

As such, you, like Germany, will have to cross the MAO. You'll also have to race toward Moscow and Warsaw in order to defeat Germany and maybe take some of his homeland as well. These are pretty lofty goals to set at this stage, especially since the Russian and German centers are both a far cry away and the MAO will, in the best case scenario, come at the cost of taking Iberia more slowly. This is a lot to consider and it makes setting priorities difficult, but your position is secure and at the very worst, the draw seems to be thinning.

Turkey - MIA. Not sure what's going on. The game mechanics forced the Tunis disband, though I would argue that that might have been a justifiable disband anyway. Depends on how you see things. In all likelihood, the only way to survive here is to put yourself at risk and coordinate with Russia because he can help you once he's in position to hurt Austria more. That is a risk, but at this point, there's no high-risk scenario with the potential for reward that isn't worth taking.

Russia - Moving on Austria instead of Germany may be a mistake in the long run, but for now, it has some potential, especially if you and Turkey are working together. Moreover, you may get some assistance from Germany moving south - if he wants to do that. It would be a mutually beneficial arrangement for both of you, at least for a time. Still, passing up an opportunity to avoid disbanding by taking Sweden takes a lot of courage and advanced preparation.

You are also setting yourself up to be a sort of middle man between solo threats. While your chances are certainly not dead to grow and become a third threat, Germany and Austria are the runaway threats right now, each with a fair chance of a solo. You will likely be one of the final wild cards deciding who has a legitimate solo chance and whose effort will fall short, meaning that you hold a lot more power and influence over both of these powers than your sheer size implies. Use that to your advantage.

Yearly grades and rankings:

1.) Austria - A- - Getting two builds and having more on the table is huge. The fifth fleet provides potential opportunities down the road, showing that he has the long term in mind. I think he has a slight competitive advantage over Germany right now, though I would say that a three- or two-way draw is more likely than a solo from each of them.

2.) Germany - A - Negotiations fell flat with Austria to get Marseilles, but you got Liverpool and negotiated your way to a hugely beneficial truce with Russia. You were able to build in Munich and you're now well defended - and prepared for a southward assault if you like.

3.) Russia - A- - Twisting and turning like you did this year - first moving north, then pivoting back south - is inefficient but it did the trick here. Both Germany and Austria were attacking you and now only Austria is, and even there, you have a tactical advantage in Galicia. For the short-term, you're safe. For the long-term, you're a wild card.

4.) England - B- - You did what you could. You may have a shot to survive in Iberia and holding that line for the time being is definitely a plus. You also slowed Germany's advance a little bit, which gets you a higher grade than your current position might indicate.

5.) Turkey - F - NMRs don't help you. Your fall moves were correct but I can't compliment two NMRs in the same year.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
16 Aug 16 UTC
Anyone interested in playing as a replacement?
Gerry (3173 D(S))
16 Aug 16 UTC
In which game? As what?
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
16 Aug 16 UTC
This game, as Turkey. Haven't heard back from the current player.
Gerry (3173 D(S))
16 Aug 16 UTC
Understandable, thank you for the offer but I think I'm to weak for overtaking Turkey in this game.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
23 Aug 16 UTC
SoW 1912 Commentary

England - Not losing anything is honestly a pretty good year. You only have a small chunk of your homeland left and Germany will be able to outguess you and take it at some stage (plus you can't force him back out), so ultimately, you're going to have to figure out what the best setup is for surviving. You have some leverage as both Austria and Germany are somewhat solo threats here depending on what you do, so finding a friend between the two of them and sticking with them is important. Hopefully they'll keep you alive that way, but for now, it is important that you don't have to disband.

Germany - Working with Russia against Austria definitely enhances your solo chances. While it creates another somewhat powerful adversary who after years and years of mediocrity is now building for the second straight year, you weaken your primary adversary, whose territory you may eventually have to work your way into. Right now, with Russia building again, you need to work quickly to get end the battle over England's homeland as those units will be important to ensure the upper hand in Scandinavia. As long as you hold the power there, Russia physically can't stop you - it's impossible from his side on the classic map. However, if he beats you backward before you're ready, that's another story.

As for your fleets, Austria now threatens the MAO. You want to finish off the English isle but Austria absolutely cannot get his fleets up into northern Atlantic waters. You're at a disadvantage right now with a fleet locked up in London and another sitting idle in Sweden. You need fleets out that direction and failing to uncover Kiel to build a fleet closer to that line was a mistake. You need fleets over there now.

Austria - Depending on your definition of stable, your position is stable, but you are now threatened by both Germany and Austria. The former is in Bohemia, and while he can't take Tyrolia from you (unless England were to for some reason help him), he can still make your life miserable as Russia attacks. The Russian attack not only threatens your home centers but also threatens your pride as he, for the second time in recent memory, duped you into supporting him somewhere while also attacking you. He clearly believes that Germany is his best ally if he wants to survive, which is something you need to work to change.

Your fleets are in good shape. Germany is at a disadvantage against you and you will without a doubt be able to threaten him and maybe cause some chaos if you can help England. You need to convince England to let you help him, though, which is going to be difficult as long as he's in Tunis. You obviously can't protect the entire Italian mainland - you don't have the spare units - so you are going to have to come to some sort of terms with him and hope that he sticks to them if you were to go that route and help him survive in the north.

Russia - Great attack. Once again, you leveraged your diplomacy and used it to the fullest advantage, working with both Germany and Austria in a hugely beneficial way. Had you not been able to get Austria's blessing into Ankara - which was by no means guaranteed - then you would not be able to build and I would be telling you that you're underestimating Germany here. With a build, though, you'll be able to refresh your line, which simultaneously gives you a better defense than you would have otherwise. That works out great for you.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
02 Sep 16 UTC
SoW 1913 Commentary

Unless something drastic happens, I'm not going to comment here any further. It looks like a draw is quite likely and under these circumstances, there's not much to say. As such, this will be brief -

England - Sucks to be in your shoes, but that's the nature of the game. Getting cut out of the draw is probably the least fun thing that can really happen in Diplomacy, especially when you were as powerful as you were, because you thought there was no way in the world it was going to go down that path. Hell, you were probably looking at the board and trying to solo at a certain point in time. I look forward to an EOG from you because there's a lot that you and only you could talk about credibly.

Germany - You're not 100% out of the woods but Austria hasn't really been as proactive as he needs to be in order to solo here. If you're comfortable with a draw, then you need more fleets out by the Atlantic and you need to make sure your relations with Russia don't go downhill. Crazier things have happened.

Austria - You have a marginal chance at a solo but it's awfully slim. Russia and Germany could do very little damage to you even if they combined their forces, though, so you might just say fuck it and give it a go. Up to you.

Russia - Just… chill out for awhile. Probably better off entering support holds than nothing at all, but whatever.

Feel free to start preparing some EOD statements. That's a pretty ritualistic part of the SoW and I hope you all participate in it as well. There is often some outside discussion then too in the thread.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
13 Sep 16 UTC
Bump. This got way more interesting than I thought it would. I'll post briefly:

The dynamic of a nation, like England is doing here, holding the fewest number of centers on the board by far but essentially holding the key to whether or not the strongest power solos is very compelling. In this instance, England could easily "throw" the game to Austria if he felt obliged either by German resistance or even if Germany tried to cut him out of the draw. The obvious question then becomes whether or not it is worth it for Germany to cut him out of the draw, which he could easily do, at the risk of alienating the weakest and yet arguably most powerful player on the board.

Contrarily, Russia and Germany are both doing a fine job of defending against a possible solo. However, there are holes in their stalemate line. As of now, Austria has failed to exploit these, though destroying Russia's fleet in Ankara could open a door for him. Likewise, Russia Austria has holes in his line because of failed supports and other small oversights that could compromise his solo run. Heading into a new year where Austria has two more supply centers than he does units (and where he may not have the luxury of being able to build again in this game), how can he regain the advantage? He almost certainly has to boot Germany and Russia out of the territory surrounding his homeland, but that is all but impossible if they play correctly. The game is nearly at a full stalemate.

The ultimate decider here, again, is England. If his survival is threatened, is it worth throwing the game to Austria? Obviously, surviving as the weakest nation on the boards, even if against all odds, is the best case scenario. Austria needs to do whatever he can to incite the worst and Germany and Russia need to make sure England is happy so long as they continue to use his units as the most important ones they have on their front lines.
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
22 Sep 16 UTC
So, the powers that are not Austria are not making the right moves.

And I'm not talking about tactically. it means jack shit all about the individual specific moves. What I mean is they are not making the right **strategic** moves.

Austria is the clear solo threat and no one can come close to touching him.
He has a lock on 17, maybe only 16 centers. The correct play here is for EGR to back off and LET HIM TAKE 17.

You create a stalemate around your 17, you let him take the extras, you put in the same exact mathematically-impossible-to-break stalemate support holds for three years, and then if he still doesn't draw you call him a son of a bitch and email the mods.

What you do NOT do is continue to drag the game out and risk a loss by attacking rather than defending and accepting the position.

At that point, the only question is whether you eliminate England or not.
For an unranked game it's purely a matter of Honour and Lulz.
If it's DSS, and you can do it without losing, kill him, but don't let anyone know so he can't throw
If it's SOS, could go either way.

Once EGR have set up an unbreakable stalemate line, put up draws, and declared they will not cut anyone else out, they should have their not-loss.

Austria then only has two responses:
1) Convince England that if England let him win, he'll just pull back and Germany will kill him as he's no longer useful. It then falls to Austria's persuasiveness and how much England holds a grudge and whether he sees the writing on the wall as to whether this happens

2) REALLY REALLY pull back and start offering centers to Russia and/or Germany to get the game interesting again. I'm going to toot my own horn, because that's the whole point of doing this kind of thing:
gameID=165825
You can see how it freaks out all the other people holding the stalemate line as if Austria **really** wanted to draw with them he'd not have taken the centers and/or built from them.

Of course if Russia and Germany are serious about drawing with each other what would they do?
Stay absolutely fucking still as above.

At the end of the day, this is an incredibly important skill:
Saying, publicly and privately, "I'm making a line. I'm going to hold the line. I will not be tempted off the line. I will not move forward where I could misstep or be sidestepped. Everyone is with me or against me".

Why that last line? Russia's draw is up, there's no way in hell he's going to win at this point, the only people who can do that is Germany and Austria. Why is Germany's draw not up? Yeah, he's not attacking Russia or anything, in fact supporting him into some centers (which can't be held...). What is Russia going to gain here by continuing!? All he's doing is doing Germany and Austria's job for them!: muddying the waters as to who gains and continuing the game in the hope that things get so muddy that they can win.

You need to learn how to end games you cannot win. This is how you do it. Drawing/Not-Losing is more than just making moves such that someone else doesn't get 18 this turn. It's a combination of
1) Making the right moves
and almost as importantly
2) Signalling from the top of your lungs your intentions and questioning like you're goddamn Joe McCarthy who seems to shy away from ending the game.

For those playing at home, figure out what 17 they should hold and what supports from what units are ordered to hold it.

If England, Germany, and Russia don't **already** know the answer to this question, shame. This is a learning game, so this is only a minor shame, but it needs to be fixed if that's the case.
paulyork64 (351 D)
03 Oct 16 UTC
Good game all.


265 replies
Crazy Anglican (1100 D)
02 Oct 16 UTC
Artemis Bridge Simulator
It's kind an old program (been around since 2010) but its an awesome mix of role-playing and video game. Has anybody tried it?
11 replies
Open
genghiz (14577 D)
02 Oct 16 UTC
Ryder Cup final today
Anyone out there watching the Ryder Cup today? US has a big lead, any thoughts on who's going to take it home?
1 reply
Open
DammmmDaniel (100 D)
02 Oct 16 UTC
(+1)
Im Back!!!!!
Who missed me?!??!?!?! IM BACK IM BACK IM BACK. Join my game so i can kick your butts and take your dip points ASAP
6 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
30 Sep 16 UTC
#webDiplomacy twitter viral?
Can our members tweet #webdiplomacy? Can we make it viral?
https://twitter.com/webdiplomacy
What do you guys think? Is this a bad idea?
51 replies
Open
The Czech (41806 D(S))
02 Oct 16 UTC
Mods Check email please
Pretty please
0 replies
Open
chluke (12292 D(G))
29 Sep 16 UTC
vDip player names, same or different
For those of you with accounts both here and on vDip, do you use the same player id name or different names? If different, why?
15 replies
Open
Halls of Mandos (1019 D)
30 Sep 16 UTC
Since there are no new people anymore...
Who wants to play a game with me and a friend in real life who is just starting out?
6 replies
Open
Hannibal76 (100 D(B))
01 Oct 16 UTC
Question Time
Imagine a unit tapping another unit that's supporting a third unit to hold. However, the unit that's doing the tapping is dislodged. Is the unit that's holding still getting its support to hold?
4 replies
Open
pjmansfield99 (100 D)
28 Sep 16 UTC
PJ Gunboat (the return - yet again)
As above below
35 replies
Open
Ezio (1731 D)
28 Sep 16 UTC
1v1 games
Is it possible to play 1v1 games on this site? I love playing them in person, but can't seem to figure out a way to set one here. Am I not seeing an option somewhere?
15 replies
Open
coachmc19 (2830 D)
29 Sep 16 UTC
New web dip game looking for another good team of 5
I have a team of five ready to beat your team of five. Message me! I'll be waiting... ;)
0 replies
Open
brainbomb (295 D)
29 Sep 16 UTC
Brainbombs fall classic
I feel like wasting some points.
No password. Join if you dare.
80%RR 1 day phases Full press
gameID=183440
0 replies
Open
Ezio (1731 D)
29 Sep 16 UTC
How do people communicate in Gunboat?
I'm playing in a couple gunboat games, and it seems like other players are working well together, with regards to support and such. I trust they are not messaging each other, and so I would like to know how they figure out what the other players are going to do.
12 replies
Open
Hannibal76 (100 D(B))
17 Sep 16 UTC
US bombs Syrian army positions surrounded by ISIS
in Deir Ezzor. 60 soldiers dead, tens injured. They've been surrounded for 2-3 years, and the US is contributing. Swell.
100 replies
Open
Ikaneko (113 D)
28 Sep 16 UTC
Please come and join this massive WW2 map on vDip
Over on vDip, there's a massive 36 player game in the works. We need just four more to achieve the dream of this fantastically ridiculous game!
Link: http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=28019
5 replies
Open
NathanStr (101 D)
27 Sep 16 UTC
Leaving a game
Hi, I can't figure out how to leave a game? Help?
6 replies
Open
TheBritishGent (185 D)
27 Sep 16 UTC
Creating an app for webDip.
Because of my schedule, I have gotten into the habit of using my phone for webDiplomacy, but the web format isn't the best for a small screen on a phone.
This thread is more about a discussion on how the app should look, support, etc.
25 replies
Open
Page 1334 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
Back to top