oh wow, grats! And thanks for the great EOG too!

Maybe as Italy suggested he could expand a bit more on the general etiquette and expectation for and against kibitzing of eliminated players?

Haha nice EoG CK. I have to say this game was very frustrating for me.as England - that lead to some, umm rash commentary mid-game, but hey, what's WebDip without a bit of blood and guts strewn about?

From my perspective, early press was quite different. Germany had pledged to push East hard and fast, and seemed interested in a WT, on the proviso that E/G was strong to offset the potential threat from France. Russian press was fairly funny so I knew something was up when he tried to convince me that a Northern opening wasn't necessarily aimed at England. Ahem, right.

Anyhow, my first mistake was allowing the EC move - and it remained a knife at my neck as I tried to improvise and maintain some unit builds with the plan to remove it later - which ultimately never came for a few reasons.

The East was a mess - complete chaos, German advances were faltering, but even so we could've made something of the game, but Germany decided to get opportunistic, and flipped at the suggestion of a rampaging France. The logic of which I will never understand. Our only hope at that point was solidarity. Russia had come to see the threat, but Germany did the only thing which could destroy him and turned on me for the sake of a lousy single SC.

The implication of this move, were several - not least the end of any chance I had of mounting a serious comeback - CK in France was clearly implacable and determined - and why wouldn't he be? An honest enemy trumps a dishonest friend making a horrible move - so I decided that my absolute best bet was to assist France to destroy Germany and take an unassailable lead in the match, to force the hand of the squabbling Easterners, basically whacking them over the head with it to make them come together to prevent the solo, with the happy side benefit of taking out my sworn enemy from that point - win/win for me - but a long shot at best. The alternative was to fight a losing battle at that point and drag it out even further.

So that's what I did. I was successful in helping France kill Germany for his perfidy, but unsuccessful in convincing the feuding East in coming together quickly enough to make a material difference. Their refusal to put aside their differences and recognise what was happening fast enough, threw any final chance to stop the solo away. My name calling finally got some attention - but it was too little too late. Sorry guys i didn't really mean it - you know I love you all.

It was a seriously high quality match, and CK played really, really, well. I still don't understand why Germany stabbed me at the worst possible moment, as Russia seemed to be turning and seeing what was happening, nor that mess between Italy, Turkey and Austria.

But it sure was fun.

Oh and sorry for that terrible word vomit - but I'm in a hurry this morning :)

Nice EOGs, ckr and Wusti, and congrats ckroberts. I'll try to get my thoughts and reactions up in the next couple days!

In two parts:

Part 1
I had been very clear from 1901 that a Turkey with three fleets was something I wasn't prepared to work with. That did not change at any point during the game, though when Austria stabbed me (for reasons unknown) I certainly encouraged Turkey to think otherwise.

Just as Austria, Russia, and I seemed to have patched things up, and with the obvious threat of a French 18, Russia then stabbed me just as Turkey was on the ropes: costing the eastern powers Tunis. My mind remains blown as to the reasoning of that, as other than that move Russia played a fantastic game both tactically and diplomatically - recovering from what looked to be a hopeless start with panache.

Other players:
Turkey and I had a most toxic relationship for much of the game. His negotiation was "I've build three fleets but I don't want to attack you" and mine was "I don't believe you. Disband a fleet and we can talk."... but to his credit we worked well and managed to re-establish a relationship after about 1907.
Austria: stabbed me twice, both times for no benefit.
England: got rude and at the death got too defensive... otherwise a good game.
Germany: crazy strange moves. predictable elimination.

Part 2 (NAO or Iri):
This is my reasoning. Both England and France disagreed with it and so be it.
Set Up:
16-centre France with F NAO (+5 units defending Med, 5 defending Germany, and 5 attacking StP... but F Nwg will be free after the upcoming turn) against 1 centre ENG F Lpl coming up to a Spring move, and no other units on the board to impact.

There are five cases:
F Lpl - NAO
F Lpl - Cly
F Lpl - Iri
F Lpl - Wal
F Lpl h

What should NAO do in each case?
Case 3 is obvious: F NAO - Lpl; England Dies so his Fall move doesn't matter.
Case 2 is the same, as Nwg covers Edi and England dies.
Case 5 F NAO h or F NAO - Lpl. F Nwg can then be supported to Clyde and then to Liverpool. Even if he escapes to London, StP has now fallen and Build F Bre, and the now free F Nwy cover everything.
Case 1 reduces to case 5.
Case 4, which is probably England's best move, should guarantee England London and will mean that F Nwg has to move to North Sea as NAO takes Lpl. Then, the following year. North Sea will have to take London as Liverpool moves Irish then MAO. England should be able to take Brest! But by now StP has fallen and Build A Par (with F MAO) end the brave adventures of the English fleet. This is frustrating, but still guarantees the French 18.

In all five cases, F NAO - Lpl GUARANTEES the French 18.

So... all that needs to be found is a single shot for any other move where the 18 is no longer guaranteed.
The move in question was F NAO - Iri, and I content that this breaks the chain on the English Fleet and thus puts the 18 at risk! By:
F Lpl - NAO (the other possibly optimal move as it maximises the chance of error!)

Now what are the options?
F NAO - MAO
F NAO - Nwg
F NAO - Cly
F NAO - Lpl
F NAO - Iri
F NAO h

The most likely is outcome is a bounce in Liverpool. But if this is the case then in Spring France has a dilemma! If he moves to Liverpool then F NAO - MAO and the 18 is gone!!!! But if he moves to MAO then NAO is guessing with Nwg over Cly or Nwg and North Sea is now at risk!

Spring 1901: My goal was to create as much havoc and rivalry between Russia, Austria and Italy, to help me survive the first two years and make some quick gains. I have sent messages to Germany and England saying that we should cooperate against Russia, a message to Italy that once Austria will be eliminated I will head towards Russia and he will head towards France, offering him Vienna, Trieste and Greece. To Austria I said that I also want to attack Russia, if he moves to Galicia. I will go to a naval campaign, he will go for a land campaign.

It worked, partially. Germany and England opened hard against Russia, but Austria did not move to Galicia. In addition, Italy moved to Tyrolia, and I have enjoyed the mess.

Autumn 1901: Germany reassured me he is going all out against Russia. I have messaged Austria that too bad we did not coordinate the attack on Russia with Germany. In addition I have sent a message to Russia asking about another bounce in the Black Sea. Italy kept talking that I should not build fleets, and with Austria not fighting Russia it smelled like a big team-up - AI against Turkey.

To Russia I have denied that I am part of the conspiracy against him and reassured him that I will build one fleet to stop Italy from having funny thoughts. Russia told me that Germany is saying it was my idea, and I have denied it - saying I don't need 3 enemies (AIR). Then I promised that Armenia will not move to Sevastopol.

I have spoken both with Austria and Russia so they will take Galicia. He also told me that Sevastopol will be open for me, which made sense according to the info I had.

Outcome: I found myself in Sevastopol with an ARMY (wow!) and two builds. I had mixed emotions about Italian taking Munich - Germany helped me with Russia, and there was no war between Italy and Austria.

The builds were really interesting. I was happy to see a fleet in Marseilles (easier to sell 'France is coming for you').

Spring 1902: Italy built a fleet in Naples, Austria has a fleet in Greece and they are not fighting. This definitely is bad for Turkey, and with me actively fighting Russia and Germany probably not going to be able to progress with his campaign against Russia, I had a feeling of 3 vs 1 coming SOON. I had to do something about it.

Italy was upset with my two fleets. I have to reassure him now that indeed I had no will nor plans to attack Italy - which he did not believe up to about 1907. I knew that he only needs to persuade Austria to attack me and I won't hold for long, so we have entered into a very long and tiresome negotiation which lead us anywhere. It was toxic, it was bad, it was repetitive and I just couldn't convince him that I am not attacking him or willing to do so.

So, I had to bring Austria on board. I have emphasized how favorable my builds are (he agreed) and we conceived a plan that included both cooperation against Russia and Italy, where I take Greece, Austria gets Rumania and he supports me into East Med. This is indeed what happened. Germany said he won't go to Moscow, which I decided to take.

Autumn 1902: This is the most important season that shaped the game in the East side, in my opinion. I found myself in Moscow. I have offered to support England into St.Pet. With Germany the situation began to look weird - he tried to make me attack Austria ("Aren't you worried about Bulgaria?") and said that Austria requested that Germany will not to assist me.

I became paranoid (again). What if Austria will flip sides because he things I am doing too well? At this stage Italy signaled me that Austria lied to him about something and that I was trustworthy and kept my promises. I felt that now might be a good change to stab Austria, to prevent a stab that I feared was coming. In addition, Austria said he will be too nervous if I'd get another two builds and refused to help me with a support to Sevastopol.

France has also said that he will not move against Italy because I won't commit against it and tried to understand what I'm doing - probably to feed Russia.

So, I have once again asked Germany to tap Ukraine, and he said that it won't help him in any way - and that I can't help him in any way.

At this point Russia was very mature and said if we can make a deal. The deal was that he keeps Moscow, supports me into Warsaw and Rumania and acts like a junior partner to get to the stalemate line. I said that I don't look for junior partners and want him to be a part of the draw. He, in turn, said he wants to bring Germany some pain.

I have also spoken with Italy and said I want to stab Austria - which he happily accepted.

Outcome: I was in Greece and Warsaw, Russia owning me a huge favor of being back in game (which I hoped to collect later on).

This is the season I most regret upon. Now I feel I should have continued with the Russian demise and only when Austria is more engage with Italy, attack him.

From here things only continued to deteriorate with Italy. He has taken Greece. Russia has also stabbed me in 1904 (but it quickly changed) and generally from 1903 to 1905 the east side was indeed a mess - mostly caused by Italy (he was the wild card in all of the east game, as far as I am concerned. I had a pretty solid control over what happened with Austria and Russia).

At 1905 I have convinced France to move on Italy, hoping that Italy will stop fighting me and start defending himself, but this did not happen. It felt like it was more important for Italy to make sure I am out, instead of stopping France.

1907 was the last year when we fought. At 1908 we have actively started to cooperate against France, which took a year or two to coordinate. The biggest force behind it was Russia, and he did a great job uniting us against France - which ultimately did not help.

I have tried to play several psychological tricks on the public and private chat with France, but he did not buy into it, and took the solo.

This was one of the most interesting and rewarding games I have played.

Great summary, Baskineli.

It was just toxic. The offers I were making to turn to stop France were broadly what finished up happening in the end, but it took Russia to step in and make it work diplomatically - a major failing on my part. As for why? Well, I kept attacking you because you (and Austria and Russia) were all saying that you would kill me then stop France - my only hope was to make it clear that was impossible and sadly the message took just fractionally too late.

France, to his absolute credit, played the situation perfectly.

Great EOGs all around. I should have time to write mine tomorrow evening. Before that, though, I want to say that I really enjoyed the completely anonymous aspect of the game and I'd definitely sign up again. It added a dimension of fun to the game that I don't always get from the semi-anon games I usually played.

As a preview, my EOG is going to focus on the following turns:
- Spring 1902
- Spring 1904
- Autumn 1905
- Autumn 1906

Really looking forward to it.

I hope this was a good game for everyone. My hope is to organize more of these high quality games on a regular basis and make it completely anon but still high quality so people can enjoy them.

Let me know if this was exactly what you were looking for and how I can make them better.

The EOGs were certainly fun to read

Hot girls in bikinis would have made the game more enjoyable for me.

zultar, it was exactly what I was looking for. Please organize more of these.

haha dyager - no EoG from you? and yes zultar - it was a good game.

I’m going to start with some general thoughts for my EOG, and then discuss a few specific turns which really shaped my perspective and built towards the inevitability of France’s solo.

The bottom line for this game is as follows: I started off the game being attacked hard by Germany and Turkey despite positive press with both, and spent most of the early years salvaging my position. The early game was shaped by two (completely insane IMO) decisions by Germany: (1) moving to Silesia and Prussia in 1901, misleading both France and me, and (2) stabbing England after it became clear that France, Turkey, Russia, and England would be his enemies if he did so.

Two other factors laid the groundwork for the solo.

First, England and I never really trusted each other through 1903, and we both made moves which could be described as justifiably cautious but nonetheless meant we were hurting each other and helping France, even after Germany’s stab. The lack of trust between England and I probably hurt our ability to make creative moves in the late-game phase, when it was impossible to stop the solo without some really creative play that we just didn’t even attempt.

And second, in 1905 when it was clear to me that France *could* solo if his position solidified and continued expanding to the point where he would own Tunis and face no opposition in the north, Italy and Turkey were unable to reach an agreement about how to cooperate against France. I can take some blame for this, because I concluded they needed to work together ASAP but assumed the urgency would be apparent to all and they’d figure it out. I eventually stepped in and brokered a deal between them, but by the time I did that, it really was too late. The anti-France coalition was basically the entire board by Fall 1907, and it didn’t matter.

So let’s go through a couple “anchor” turns that form my narrative.

In Spring 1902, it’s pretty plain to see my situation is dire. In 1901, I had opened north because Germany and France were both talking Sealion and asked for my help. I also personally really like the northern opening as Russia. Turkey wanted to fake a war, but that ended with him taking Sev instead. The west was a bit of a quagmire, too, in 1901, with a Sealion (from France’s perspective) and a WT (from England’s perspective) falling apart. And, of course, Germany and Turkey both attacked me and England opened north (as I did).

So in Spring 1902, (1) Turkey is in Moscow, (2) Germany is in Warsaw, (3) I have disbanded my northern fleet and have an army in Finland. In this move, I order Fin-StP while England orders Nor-StP (and he has a fleet in Norway). Putatively, he didn’t want to risk I’d move to Norway, but I never understood this logic. It was clear I was under siege from Germany and Turkey, and France already took a swing at London in the fall, so the case for England and I not to fight on our border was very strong. Just holding in Norway would have done the trick.

I do my very best after this to convince Turkey that I can still be a useful partner, that Germany deserves to be a dead man walking, and that I can help him in the east if he helps me stay alive. It works and he agrees to move Moscow to Warsaw, taking the SC from Germany. I don’t really understand what’s going on between Italy and Austria at this point but it looks like Italy and Turkey agreed to take out Austria, after Austria and Italy had seemingly been allied.

Some solo-building notes about 1902. First, in both turns in 1902, France did not make any effort whatsoever to cover Burgundy. His armies are in Portugal and Belgium (which can’t move) at the start of the year and (1) Italy chooses not to move there in 1902 despite it being clear he is likely to be dislodged, (2) he also chooses not to retreat there in Spring 1902, despite knowing that doing so would have guaranteed he could take Paris, and (3) Germany chooses not to move there in the fall, and instead takes France’s support from Belgium of Kie-Hol. Would really, really love to hear from Germany why he thought attacking England was a good idea at this point. I think Germany would have lived, I would have died, and no one would have solo’d if he made a different move.

France had to be doing some great work behind the scenes with Germany, Italy, and England to pull off 1902 the way he did. I remember seeing and being astonished by how undefended Burgundy was and thinking that, if I weren’t desperately relying on France getting strong enough to swallow Germany whole, I would have been too tempted not to really push for Italy to attack Germany.

But anyway. 1902 ends, and I have something a foothold in the game. I’ve swapped Rum for Sev and Turkey now owns Warsaw instead of Germany, which seems like an improvement. France has moved hard on England. 1903 is a year of chaos in the east, and it’s partly my fault. The others have already commented on it, so I’ll just say this: I was only still in the game because of Turkey, but Austria had also been loyal to me all game. I really couldn’t decide who to attack or why but it appears safer to attack Austria with Turkey than otherwise.

It’s a narrow decision and I’m not convinced I made the right one, though I’m equally unconvinced that a different sequence of flip-flopping would have altered the outcome. Anyway, the square this circle of owing life debts to both Austria and Turkey, I sort of fall into an alliance between the three of us against Italy would make some sense.

By Spring 1904, I’ve got Rumania, all my home SCs, and, as a small aside, I make a foolish move to Norway, once again burning some trust with England for no good reason. I have so many competing loyalties at this point that this sequence of turns is a blur in my memory. I think this is how it goes but, important proviso, I’m certainly getting some details wrong:

Spring 1903: I take Rumania from Austria because Turkey literally just pulled me out of the graveyard and given the choice between attacking one of them, Austria’s loyalty was lower impact more recently. But it feels dirty.

Autumn 1903: I get a build in StP, and Turkey agrees to return Warsaw to me for S04, so I’m growing. Great achievement considering I could be dead right now. I continue to help Turkey.

Spring 1904: The guilt gets to me and there is briefly an AI against Turkey aided by me. Austria has some really effective press between Spring 1903 and Spring 1904 which basically makes me feel like an ungrateful weasel. In retrospect, if I had been more ruthless this turn and just allowed Austria to die, there probably would not have been a French solo. Italy would have been strong enough to hold Tunis.

Autumn 1904: I am in Rumania and Black Sea. I support Ser-Bul and Bul-Con, and Turkey in Greece supports Con-Bul. The set of standoffs these moves produce is really amazing. I continue to not be on Turkey’s side.

So we get to spring 1905, which is a pretty important turn. During this whole disaster in the east, France is eating Germany whole, pretty effectively, and England is basically completely on the ropes. France has Norway and he’s promised to give it to me but he reneges. He has a reason, which sounds plausible, but IMO, the real reason is that he knows I can never take Norway from him and he sees that if he gets Tunis now and can just hold it for long enough, he has a chance to solo. And he doesn’t need me at all, so he’s got no reason to keep his word.

I’d found his promises in 1903 and 1904 all very suspicious, but I still didn’t even own Warsaw until Spring 1905 so my ability to do much about it was, well, non-existent. Anyway, this is the turn where I decide that Austria and Turkey are the ones who saved my life, so I really shouldn’t be selling either of them down the river if it can be avoided. My assessment that it could be avoided is probably mistaken, but this is the reason for my “inexplicable” stab against Italy in Spring 1905.

Tactically, this stab was also probably unsound, because it got Turkey Bulgaria but guaranteed that Italy could take Smyrna - I don’t understand why, but Turkey was really eager to see some action, though I did point out that waiting until the fall would be a better strike against Italy. Regardless, I realize the folly instantly when I see that this happens while France sends 2 fleets south and reneges on giving me Norway in Fall 1905.

I had set this up in Fall 1904, with a joint message to Germany and Turkey, telling both of them that if we kept fighting, France would solo. Turkey and Germany both listened but the challenge was that England kept helping France, accelerating France’s explosive growth in the north. So in Spring 1905, when my move against Italy is revealed to be a mistake, the ingredients are there to stop the solo.

So the problem is this: probably, I can stop the solo if I just start supporting Italy against Turkey, but Turkey has an army in Apulia and all that is needed for the solo is for France to get Tunis and keep it for a little while since there is a dearth of fleets anywhere near where they need to be. So I decide it is too risky to attack Turkey by the time that, in Fall 1905, France is basically everywhere.

My conclusion if that the safest thing to do is to first, retake Tunis, and then go from there. I try to sell Italy and Turkey on that plan, and tell me a solo is very likely if they don’t reach agreement. The confidence in my press in 1905 and 1906 is really quite embarrassing looking back. I’ve got a message to Austria in S05 that basically says “all we have to do is retake Tunis and we’re just 2 turns from stalemating France and preventing him from soloing”. In the future, when this situation arises, I think I’ve learned I need to sound the alarm bell a lot louder to get cooperation going. Even in Spring 1906, Turkey seems unconvinced that we need Italy.

Anyway, this whole Gordian knot just slowly untangles. The only person who really sees the game as I see it in Spring 1905 is England, but England isn’t quite ready to risk attacking France just yet. It takes a little while longer before he is, and I make promises to him about an eastern coalition which is coming and just doesn’t come fast enough. I’d love to hear more from Baskineli and TheGoffy about why a deal between the two of them wasn’t attainable in 1906. I’m sure my memory is poor and I’ve forgotten a few things.

The second-last real opportunity we have to stop the solo is taking and holding Berlin before 1907. But England and I just don’t move aggressively enough against France, and Austria and I make a couple of bad guesses (these moves happen around a time when Austria and I are both only logging on late in the phase - time constraints probably played a role in our weak moves). All efforts to take and hold Berlin fail, mostly because they aren’t well thought out.

And then France is on a path to imminently secure Tunis permanently in Fall 1907, so after those moves I press as hard as humanly possible to Italy and Turkey that security can no longer be the price for working towards the draw, we must only play for the draw and all other priorities be damned. It works, and England has come around too, but it’s just not enough.

Until France puts a unit in NAf in Fall 1910, there is a chance to stop the solo. But those 4 turns are not used effectively in the east (others can speak better to why the effort to take TyS and then Tunis failed), and in the north, England insists I support him in Scandinavia rather than moving around and trying to outguess France to retake part of England or Berlin again. I do voice my opinion that this is just counting down until the final nail in the coffin, but England doesn’t really seem engaged and I can’t blame him: he’s got no real chance of being in any draw no matter what I say to him in Fall 1908.

And that’s all she wrote. Takes France a little while longer to chase down England’s stray fleet and muster enough fleets to force StP, but he does it, exactly as I first imagined he would in 1904 when I made peace with Germany and Turkey, and again in 1907 when I got Italy and Turkey to set their differences aside. All too little, too late, and very well played by ckroberts.

This thread added to the EOG repository.
tinyurl.com/webDipEOG